Talk:Morgyn Ember

Pronouns
I've been seeing a lot of changes to the pronouns referring to Morgyn and people keep changing it from he to they and vise versa multiple times. I know that due to Morgyn's custom gender settings it looks like the Sim is gender non-conforming ala Trans or Non-binary. But considering the SimGurus themselves refer to Morgyn as he multiple times, i believe it's best to assume he's a trans-man with he/him pronouns. WizardJeremy (talk) 23:41, September 14, 2019 (UTC)


 * From the custom settings in the game I'd say that Morgyn is male and gender non-conforming. It's not like these things are mutually exclusive. If the SimGurus are using masculine pronouns so should the Wiki IMO since that's official information.
 * Also, it seems to me that Morgyn is a completely original character and not a spoof of Newt Scamander or Sabrina. Both those assertions are pretty far fetched. — Gvaudoin  💬 00:45, September 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree. If his gender is set as male, he should be referred to as male on his page regardless of how much the gender customisations are customised. Just like how Lia Hauata has a masculine body but is set as female and so is referred to as such on her page. Mariaw (talk) 00:54, September 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * The problem Is that there is no option for non binary option in the game as of yet. It isn't a thing that can be done. They have to be set to male, or female. The only option that comes with a third choice in the expansive gender options is get pregnant, or impregnate or neither. That's the closest hint we have to Morgyn being non binary. Because there is no other neutral option in the game. You can't say "Set to male, so must be male". The games limitations means that isn't always true. Male/Female option is basically "Flat chested, or Full chested" And most folks consider flat chested to be mroe androngynous. Which is likely why they were set to male. I also agree that the character isn't much like Newt or Sabrina. Also do you have a source to the SimGuru refering to Morgyn as he? Because I've yet to see it. Unless there is an explicit source I'm going to lean on them being non binary as I believe Darling to be as well. 2601:1C1:4000:FCE0:75CD:3C08:A0E1:60C0 (talk) 04:02, September 15, 2019 (UTC)
 * Both gurus refer to Morgyn as "He" in the livestream.here's the link to the moment. WizardJeremy (talk) 09:31, September 15, 2019 (UTC)
 * That MAY just be that the gurus are used to use the pronoun "he" for people who look male. Maybe these gurus hadn't seen Morgyn in CAS, because even though they're gurus they don't take a look at everything. But still, I don't mean that we can't use "he" for Morgyn, I just mean that the gurus may not even had had a thought of using any other pronoun. In-game Morgyn has the prnoun "he" because they only have "he" and "she" in-game, so I don't think it's wrong to use "he" on Morgyn's page until proven otherwise by a guru explicity saying what Morgyn's pronoun(s) is/are. Katsube (talk) 09:55, September 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * I've seen that Morgyn's pronoun have been changed back and forth, between "he" and "they" several times the last days. Could we just agree on one pronoun and then keep it until proven otherwise? I suggest "they" because, first of all it's neutral and can be used for people who have the pronoun "he" or "she" as well, and, second, because the EA Game Changer WellMadeSandwich wrote on their (Btw, see what I did there? I don't know the person's gender so I used "their", the pronoun "they" doesn't take someone's gender away, it's just neutral.) Twitter account that they had asked SimGuruNinja about Morgyn's gender and got the answer "I would definitely think Morgyn would identify as nonbinary or genderfluid." I saw that they wrote this on other social media too, with a little bit of more information, for example they said that they had asked SimGuruNinja in person, not on social media, but I can't find it, and I don't remember if it was on Tumblr, Instagram, or something else. Anyway, the Twitter post suggests that Morgyn is non-binary, but since the answer isn't ON a SimGuru's account it's not an official answer, but this, and the fact that Morgyn have a preference for female clothing, suggests that Morgyn is non-binary. Let's go with "they" until proven otherwise.


 * Here's a link to the Twitter post: https://twitter.com/WMSandwich/status/1171437789331636225


 * Katsube (talk) 07:28, October 14, 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why "they" would be the default when masculine pronouns are used in the game as well as by the SimGurus. Morgyn has never officially been referred to as "they". — Gvaudoin  💬 15:05, October 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * Just because Morgyn wears feminine clothes doesn't mean he necessarily has to be non-binary. Men can wear feminine clothes without being non binary. Until we get a confirmation of his gender being non-binary from the Gurus, we should just use he/him pronouns because all signs point to him being a male who just wears feminine clothes. Take Darling Walsh as an example. She was one of the first premade Sims to wear clothing made for a different gender. This led many people to people to believe she was non-binary, but in game, she was just a female Sim who wears clothes tagged as masculine. Her Sims wiki page refers to her as female and uses she/her pronouns. We still have no confirmation if she is non-binary or not, so the page still says female. I believe he/him pronouns are appropriate until we hear otherwise. Speculation is not allowed on the wiki. His gender settings seem to fit more as if he were a transgender man (although there is no confirmation of this either. He can't get others pregnant, get pregnant, or stand up to use the bathroom, which is a typical trait of transgender men who have gone through HRT. They sometimes become infertile and unable to become pregnant.) DarkSuicune2000 15:17, October 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * Even if someone is genderfluid and wears both masculine and feminine clothes doesn't mean they can't use "he" or "she" pronouns. Everyone seems to be hung up on clothes and makeup when it's really not about that at all. There's simply no reason for using "they". It's not used in the game or by the SimGurus. Some players might use "they" but the Wiki should reflect official information. — Gvaudoin  💬 15:27, October 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * Regarding Morgyn's gender, he's clearly gender non-conforming in some way at the very least, and I personally think his gender settings resemble someone who's at least gone through some hormone replacement therapy, but that's neither here nor there. As far as pronouns go, it's possible for non-binary people to use he/him (or she/her) pronouns, but it's also not possible to give a sim they/them pronouns or list their genders as anything other than male or female. So while it's possible for a binary person to have gender settings like Morgyn's, I think Morgyn the closest approximation the game could have to creating a non-binary person with the game's current capabilities regarding gender cutsomization 172.88.28.33 (talk)


 * Regarding the actual article, I object to including the phrase "leading to some confusion about his gender identity" in the sentence "Morgyn's gender is given as male in Create a Sim, but it is heavily customized, leading to some confusion about his gender identity." I think if the argument against calling Morgyn non-binary is that the wiki must only contain factual information, then the wiki should present Morgyn's gender settings without interpretation.


 * If the section were to read "Morgyn's gender is given as male in Create a Sim, but it is heavily customized. He has a masculine frame and a preference for feminine clothing, he is unable to become pregnant or get other Sims pregnant, and cannot use the toilet standing up." then it would present only the facts regarding Morgyn's gender and allow the reader to come to their own conclusions.


 * Regarding the sim gurus' comments about Morgyn possibly being non-binary, I agree that this doesn't qualify as "official information", but I see no reason why it couldn't be included in the article with that caveat. Something like "There is no confirmation of Morgyn's gender identity in game, however some Sim Guru's have expressed their beliefs that he could be non-binary" in a Trivia section or something. So long as the source is identified, it stays objective. And other articles have comments from the team included and it seems illogical to avoid doing so here. 172.88.28.33 (talk) 19:33, August 29, 2020 (UTC)

Jumping in late here. I think the use of 'they/their/theirs' as opposed to 'he/him/his' or 'she/her/hers' is mostly done when the gender of the subject is unknown or unknowable. In my own day-to-day life, I (try to) use gender-neutral pronouns if it's not clear how the subject would want to be referred to. Using a neutral pronoun avoids making a potentially incorrect assumption about the person's gender expression. I think the SimGurus using male pronouns for this character is interesting but not necessarily confirmatory; as someone above me mentioned, they could have simply defaulted into the he/she binary without thinking about it. It's also important to emphasize that gender expression is the choice of the person themself, and that the SimGurus, though possibly involved in the creation of the character, are not the character. But at the risk of getting lost in the weeds on this matter, let's circle around back to the main point.

In the absence of clear evidence of a Sim's gender, I think we ought to default to neutral terms. This, I think, is the most respectful course open to us, as it doesn't make any assumptions about a character that can't be backed up with other evidence. I don't think the use of neutral pronouns needs to be in any way controversial; it's simply acknowledging that we lack definite information on which to base an assumption of gender. Using a gender-neutral pronoun causes the least harm, and also leaves the door open to the reader/player interpreting the character how they see fit. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog  ·  contribs 14:30, October 26, 2019 (UTC)


 * But everything you say in your second paragraph is true for literally every single Sim. There is the same amount of evidence for every one of them. And yet we don't always have this discussion. It seems to me that this is only an issue when a Sim doesn't exactly fit gendered stereotypes. Every time this happens people make all kinds of assumptions.


 * Not being able to have children or not using the toilet standing up or liking feminine clothing doesn't make someone any less of a man. I don't find that assumption very respectful. Those are just outdated stereotypes.


 * The same thing happened with Izzy Fabulous. There isn't a discussion page but the article was changed multiple times and it's all just based on the fact that he has a high voice and likes the colour pink. Both Morgyn and Izzy are male in the game but since they don't fit the exact stereotype of what a "man" ought to be like they're being othered. I thought we were past these kinds of prejudices.


 * User:AireDaleDogz has suggested a new category called "Sims with gender customization". I think this would be a good idea since it simply reflects the fact that a Sim uses the custom gender settings without making any assumption about them.


 * Anyway, I apologise that this has gotten so long and I hope it makes some sense to you since English isn't my first language. But these are my thoughts on the subject. — Gvaudoin  💬 15:57, October 27, 2019 (UTC)
 * You're right that not all men wear stereotypically male clothes, not all men are fertile, and not all men stand up peeing, and it's really sad that a lot of people think these attributes define that persons gender. I think it's the combination of these three that make people (including me, in this specific case) thinking that Morgyn might not be meant to be a man, but rather non-binary. I mean, it's a game, so it's the creator of Morgyn who has the last say about Morgyn's gender, and since there's yet no option to make anything else than a man or a woman, the custom gender is the only thing we can draw conclusions from, and to me it seems like the creator wanted to make Morgyn into a sim who's as gender-neutral as possible. Morgyn's gender isn't as obvious than for example Izzy Faboulus and Minerva Charm. A lot of people have been like "[Izzy/Minerva] is trans!", but these characters are fertile in a way that follows their base-gender, so they are obviously meant to be cis. Infertility is, sadly, the only non-gendered option in custom gender, so that give us a clue of what the creator probably wanted to do.


 * Anyway, the Game Changer WellMadeSandwich has written on Twitter that SimGuruNinja said "I would definitely think that Morgyn would identify as nonbinary or gender fluid." Here's the link: https://twitter.com/WMSandwich/status/1171437789331636225. We don't know if SimGuruNinja was the one who made Morgyn, and we don't have a first-hand source, but it's at least a clue.


 * Though, after a bit of thinking I guess that "he" is a good pronoun to use for Morgyn on this page, even though Morgyn probably is meant to be non-binary, but "he" is the pronoun used in the game and the pronoun the SimGurus used in the stream. If a SimGuru or the official The Sims Twitter account states that Morgyn is non-binary, then we change the pronoun to "they".


 * Oh Gosh, I wish there weren't any gendered pronouns, sometimes it just makes things harder.


 * Btw, I really like the idea of having a category called "Sims with customised gender" or something similar. Though on such a page it has to be very clear that the voices aren't part of the gender customisation, which some people seem to not understand (that's why people thought that Izzy and Minerva were trans), so sims with voices of the "wrong" gender shouldn't be in this category.


 * Okay, that was a side-note. My point is that we can use "he".Katsube (talk) 18:07, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

As someone who's engaged to a nonbinary person, I really think it's a good idea to use they/them pronouns.Link where someone says that Simguruninja confirmed it as Katsube said. It's really coming across to people in the LGBTQ+ community as intentional errasure. If you really have something against using they/them on this page then I think the idea to make a page for sims with customized gender would be bestLadyMerya (talk) 01:53, April 22, 2020 (UTC)LadyMerya
 * There is now a page for sims with customized gender, and Morgyn is there. ^^ Katsube (talk) 15:21, April 24, 2020 (UTC)


 * I'd agree with LadyMerya, in that this article should use gender-neutral pronouns. In 99.9% of circumstances, there would be no reason to call the Sim's gender into question. Clearly, judging by this discussion and the edit history on the page, this is one of those circumstances where the Sim's gender isn't clear-cut. Adopting gender-neutral pronouns doesn't mean the same as saying or assuming that the Sim is nonbinary; it just means that there's credible room for doubt. I'll also echo and add to the point I made the first time I commented here, and say that using gender-neutral terminology causes no harm to the article, the wiki, or anyone who might read the page, whereas assuming a gender when there is sufficient reason to question it could be perceived by some as being insulting or offensive. Assuming the gender, and writing the article with gendered pronouns, in this case could conceivably cause angst or distress to a reader. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog  ·  contribs 02:59, May 16, 2020 (UTC)

Being a spoof
I'm pretty sure that Morgyn is an original character and not a spoof of neither Newt nor Sabrina. Morgyn and Newt don't have the same personality at all, and they don't have much of a visual resemblance either. Morgyn and Sabrina doesn't look anything alike, and that Morgyn may be a spoof because of the same song as in Sabrina is very farfetched. The only thing they have in common is that they can use magic, and there are a lot of fictional characters that can use magic. Morgyn is simply an original character. So I'll remove the whole part of Morgyn being a spoof of Newt or Sabrina. Katsube (talk) 06:39, September 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree on just removing it anyway, cause after consideration its not really needed as after playing with them and rewatching the Gameplay trailer they really are just an original character.
 * I'd just like to explain as to why i believed the character highly resembled Sabrina from Chilling Adventures is the bold imagery Morgyn has is curled short bright blonde hair and the big red overcoat, which was prominently worn by Sabrina through Season 1 on the show as well as it was Sabrina's colour scheme in promotional material. And as said the trailer used the same song that was in promotional material, so that, Morgyn's androgenous appearance (to which i now know is because he's trans), and the fact they're both characters who are shown to be exceptionally powerful, it was a dead ringer for me.
 * I do agree that Morgyn doesn't resemble Newt Schamander at all, i can kinda see it with the type of overcoat but it's not the same colour, Newt has a different hairstyle, and the fact Morgyn never once was portrayed as bumbling or awkward as Newt's character is.WizardJeremy (talk) 09:10, September 15, 2019 (UTC)

My theory is that Morgyn is based on Michael Langdon from American Horror Story: Apocalypse; I mean, their hair is identical to his when he was at the Wizarding School. Their coat is also identical to his when he lived in the bunker after the nuclear apocalypse. Michael is famous for defying gender norms, and his actor, Cody Fern, does so as well, wearing dresses and makeup on the red carpet and looking really good whilst doing it. The fact that Morgyn is an untamed spell caster, arguably the most “evil” or “chaotic” of the schools, I feel like they are definitely based on Michael. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.191.216.166 (talk • contribs) 11:16, October 11, 2019‎ (UTC) - Please sign your comments with ~


 * I do see the resemblance, but the hair isn't completely identical, Morgyn's hair parts on the left while Michael's hair parts on the right, but other than that, yes, it looks a lot alike. About the coat the only resemblance I can see is that the coat is long, other than that it is in a different material, and the lapels look completely different, and they are in different colours. At least I guess I'm looking at the correct coat, I haven't seen the movie, I just Googled, and in the search results I looked at the coat that had the closest resemblance of Morgyn's coat. I guess Michael Langdon could've been an inspiration for Morgyn, but I wouldn't say that Morgyn is a spoof of Michael, then they would've had even more similarities. I mean, their faces don't look alike, or is that only my opinion? I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know at all about Michael Langdon's personality. Do Michael and Morgyn have similar personalities? When it comes to Cody Fern, I couldn't find any pictures of him wearing a dress, though I saw a lot of pictures of him wearing stereotypically female clothes, and makeup. Katsube (talk) 12:36, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

Hidden comment on the article
For reasons that I touch on in Gender pronouns guideline in the Manual of Style, I have removed the embedded hidden comment from the top of the article text. My action is taken as an editor, not an administrator, so if the community broadly feels that my edit detracts from the article, it is your prerogative to dispute it via a revert or, preferably, via discussion. Without going too far into the weeds, I'll say that I have removed the comment because it in effect defines the consensus, and I do not feel as though consensus in this case is defined, or even that it is ideal to define what consensus is since consensus can change over time. The comment seeks to enforce the status quo against those who might choose to edit the pronouns/gender terms, an action which would go against the going consensus developed on this page. But, since consensus can change and be re-defined, I feel it is necessary to leave the door open to the consensus changing organically. Adding the comment to the page tries to shut the door on that organic development.

I would encourage everyone, regardless of where they land(ed) on the pronoun discussion above, to go to the aforementioned forum thread, where I am trying to settle the question of gender and pronouns more decisively, to weigh in with your personal thoughts and feelings. The issues brought up in the pronouns thread on this talk page have repeated themselves on other articles, so I think a broader community standard, decided through discussion, is preferable. I am open to that broader consensus being in opposition to what I have proposed, but I feel that the discussion needs to take place and that it needs to take place centrally, not in talk pages about specific characters. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog  ·  contribs 18:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC)