Forum:Organization for TS4 timeline

Hi,

I am the founder of the french Sims Wiki and I wanted to discuss and know how The Sims Wiki will organize its pages (especially Sims and families pages), if you already thought about this, for the new timeline added by The Sims 4.

For those who do not know, The Sims 4 will introduce a new timeline (not following the TS3-TS1-TS2 timeline), an alternate universe for the pre-created Sims (from SimGuruSarah).

If it is still true for the final game, we have to know how we will organize the sections of pages about pre-created Sims and families. Currently, the sections are in a chronological order like : Bella Goth

TS2
But now, with TS4?

Are you going to just put a new section for TS4 following the others? Or maybe creating two sections for each timeline : Bella Goth

TS4
Thank you. --Aster09 12:01, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
I heard somewhere that TS4's storyline takes place in between TS3 and TS1 (which makes no sense to me at all). So it would look a bit like this:

TS3
Blah blah blah

TS4
Blah blah blah

TS1
Blah blah blah

TS2
Blah blah blah

--k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 12:07, June 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * This means it would've been affected to the next sequels after TS4. Yeah, it would've been makes much sense with the Timeline 1 and Timeline 2, So that it would've not lost the tracks, since TS4, IMO is a new beginning of the new timeline.  .ThePeculiarMe  |  (talk to me)  |  (my mistakes)  12:14, June 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * k6ka, it was believed that TS4's storyline will take place between TS3 and TS1 because Mortimer and Bella are (young?) adults and we did not see Cassandra for the moment, suggesting that she might not be in the game. But now we know that it is not true, TS4 will take place in an alternate universe, it is a new storyline, confirmed by SimGuruSarah. --Aster09 13:08, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * If TS4 will be in alternate timeline, why not create separate articles for premade Sims that do appear in this alternate continuity? Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 15:35, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Having a Bella Goth (The Sims 4)... would be somewhat tedious and redundant, wouldn't it. But then again, if EA messed up the storyline so badly that keeping everything in one article would be twice the confusion, then we may as well.


 * Just something I wanted to bring up - I've gone through this process on my other wiki as well. Basically, it split all the pages up according to game, with one "overview" page that served as the "parent" page, linking to the "child" pages. Alternatively, we could use subpages, though I think that's reserved for Onomatology and the discontinued Theory pages. --k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 15:58, June 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * The link you provided seems to be broken. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 16:00, June 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Auror Andrachome: If you mean the "Bella Goth (The Sims 4)", yes, that was deliberate, to show the page hasn't been created yet. --k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 16:06, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

We could set up subpages for each Sim according to the games they appear in. This would involve quite a bit of work, but the end result would be pages that are much more organized. Think of it like how we organize List of Moodlets, where each separate list is maintained on its own separate page. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 19:01, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of subpages. To K6ka, I mean the link to your wiki is not working. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 22:52, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Auror: Huh? The link is working for me. --k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 23:11, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

1 week later
I like the idea of creating subpages for Sims that appear in multiple games. That would definitely solve the crisis of particularly long articles such as Mortimer Goth. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 21:57, July 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, for the parent article, I suggest we have a short introduction of some sort, separated by game, and then add Article name at the top. That might work very nicely. It might also work for some of the other articles that can get VERY long, like the chair page. --k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 17:04, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

My idea is to have subpages of the main page, all "contained" within the article by the use of the tabber feature, similar to the List of Moodlets page. I've mocked up a very very rough idea of what I think this would look like for a common, prolific Sim, accessible at User:LostInRiverview/Bella Goth. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 18:09, July 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * If we're lucky, the Goths are the only returning family in this series. If EA wants to mess around with the story, we're messed too. I don't know how much the tabber can be reliable in a situation like this. For Bella and Mortimer, it's fine because they're considerably very long articles, but what if EA decided to include Sims like Christopher Steel for example? Would it be worth the tabbers?


 * Adding tabbers makes the article a little messed, I think. It leaves a huge blank space in The Sims tabber, but clearly the content for The Sims 2 is longer than the infoboxes. Technical stuff like the table of content and references won't work well either. I'm thinking about making the section to be in the order of the series instead of timeline, i.e.:

TS4

 * But it's not the best solution either. The contents will make the readers confused, and I have no idea how to integrate it with console games (should all console games be at the bottom or correspond to the series?).  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  16:40, July 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think there will be more returning families that'll appear in TS4. I don't know if I'm wrong nor right but they created the Pleasant couples using the CAS demo.  .ThePeculiarMe  |  (talk to me)  |  (my mistakes)  00:20, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * The main issue with keeping all the content on one page is, if the developers make changes to the Sims or families in TS4 which is contrary to that in the earlier games. For example, what if Mortimer and Bella didn't have Cassandra in The Sims 4, but had a completely different child? How would we reconcile this on the infobox or in the lead section of the articles on Bella and Mortimer? The developers have already shown that they aren't particularly careful about how they adjust the timeline, so it wouldn't surprise me if they chose to rework some of the returning Sims or families in the game. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 09:09, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Additionally, I'd like to emphasize again that my example was a very very very very rough design of what I'm suggesting. And while I would agree that it's somewhat ugly to see an infobox that is much longer than the article content, I would counter that this is actually very common on some Sim pages, especially for Sims that aren't particularly well-known, like the aforementioned Christopher Steel. So the blank space issue that Nikel mentions is one that we already contend with. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 09:09, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Uh oh, it seems that the Goths aren't the only ones returning in the series. At least Nancy Landgraab, Dina Caliente, and Don Lothario (and probably the Pleasants as ThePeculiarMe pointed out earlier) will return in completely different appearances. Who is that even Katrina Caliente? How are we going to relate it with the Simbio-start template that lists close familial relationships with the Sim? If Katrina is Dina's sister, will we add her there? But Katrina is supposed to be a sister from an alternate universe...  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  05:09, July 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Katrina looks older than Dina, though. What if she's their mother? (Even though her mother's name was Nighat in the TS2-verse, but whatever) but Dina seems to be a teen and Katrina an Adult\middleaged. She could still be their older sister, though. (Actually, this "Katrina" and the Nighat in TS2 look a lot alike, so i guess that, maybe in the TS4-verse her name just was Katrina instead of Nighat.) 


 * Maybe we could have an article named Nighat Caliente (TS2)\Katrina Caliente (TS4). Or maybe we could link both as Dina\Nina's mother using the same tags used for what object is in each expansion pack. 78.15.35.105 (talk) 06:02, July 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to get rid of Simbio-start? I mean, the information in that part of the biography could be transferred to the individual game bio templates, right? This would be good for when/if Maxis chooses to screw up relationships between Sims. It would also work for Sims that appear in the first three games; take for example Mortimer Goth, who in TS3 is unmarried with living parents, in TS1 has a wife, a daughter, and living parents, and in TS3 has a missing wife, two children and deceased parents. Each bio template would have game-accurate familial relationship information. Really, is there much in Simbio-start that couldn't be put into the other templates? -  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 06:40, July 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm thinking the same way too. Simbio-start reflects inaccurate relationships. For example, it's very confusing what to put up on Titania Summerdream's relationship to Oberon Summerdream since she's married to him in TS3 (prequel) but unmarried in TS2 (sequel). This is the developer's oversight, but I'm pretty sure there'll be more like this.


 * I'm starting to think that using the tabview like LiR suggested. We should get rid of Simbio templates and replace them with the regular Sim templates. Inside each subpage is the infobox template, biography, and Simology information, while outside the tabview, we could write the overview of the Sim (on the top), trivia, and gallery (on the bottom).


 * I also think that it doesn't matter whether a subpage is lengthy or not anymore, so disregard my earlier opinion. I believe most characters in MySims wiki are organized this way; the same character reappears in different games, so they split them into subpages.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  06:39, July 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * Just a side note, it has been confirmed that the Caliente sisters' mother is going to be Katrina Caliente. So long, Nighat. EA is taking this alternate universe to the next level, so we're gonna need... a rather non-minor overhaul for the Sim and family pages.


 * I don't get it. If EA doesn't want to keep the integrity of returning characters, what's the point of them returning at all? What's the fuss of creating all new characters with similar personalities and backstories? SMH.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  16:53, July 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh brother! EA mucked up the storyline so badly I think everyone's better off just making up their own stories. Making things a parallel universe was easily the least intelligent thing they could've done, especially if they crammed all previous Sims into it. Why can't they just make a continuation of the main series, like what happens after The Sims 2, or before The Sims 3? Or why didn't they just go with a blank, clean slate? Just... what... this is more work for us as well! --k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 19:11, July 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they felt (possibly correctly) that some players would be upset if their favorite Sims (i.e. these guys) didn't appear in the game. I think the alternate universe is the best thing they could've done while still keeping the established characters, but I personally wouldn't have minded saying good-bye to the Goths and the other tired-out old families. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 18:21, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

I still feel like the tabbing feature (as shown on List of Moodlets) is the best way to go about separating Sims based on the games they appeared in. Alternate timeline mucks up the canon, yo. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 01:31, July 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * I only have two concerns with the tabbing feature:


 * 1. We might jump the node count limit, especially if we use too many templates. An example of a page that broke the node count limit here. The tabbers won't solve this issue, in fact it might just make it worse.


 * 2. Page loading times. Tabbers don't exactly solve that. And I'm not sure how tabbers work in mobile view either - I seldom go on Wikia on my phone, that's probably why.


 * --k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 01:54, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting thing; tabbers don't appear at all on my mobile browser. So forgoing the tabbers option, what would be the next best thing? Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 02:06, July 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * Subpages! Subpages! *chants* Subpages! Subpages! Like I did with Fireplace. I jumped the node count limit, so I had to split the page up. All of The Sims fireplaces got into one page, all of The Sims 2 fireplaces into another, and all of The Sims 3 fireplaces into the third. I found this to be a very effective solution, especially in reducing page load and saving times, which well exceeded the load and save times one would get in a CC-loaded game. --k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 02:09, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see that you're correct; even when previewing the page in "mobile view," the tabber is non-functional. I'm not a fan of subdividing onto separate pages but in this case I don't see there being much of a chance of avoiding it. If this is what we do, I would prefer we develop a more streamlined approach of linking the pages, instead of using Main. I'm not concerned that a page we would create would exceed the node count limit; in the case of Fireplace, it looks like object was severely overused. Instead of separating out into separate pages, why not just use a table instead of dozens of template calls? In any case, I'm not entirely sold on the idea of dividing pages up like this, but it seems to be the only option we have at this point. Thanks, EA. -  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 03:15, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * I am becoming inclined to go with subpages, even if it is just at the level of a main page for the main continuity and a subpage for the "alternate continuity" of The Sims 4. Dharden (talk) 03:42, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * If we do this, we're essentially saying that the first continuity is the main continuity, and that The Sims 4s continuity is alternate. It gives the impression that TS4's continuity is somehow not as correct or accurate as the older continuities are. I personally think any solution we adopt should treat all continuities as equally valid, and not treat some as "main" or some as "alternate." -  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog' 03:46, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The Sims 4 is an alternate continuity that's entirely separate from the main timeline. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 04:27, August 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm with Auror. There is The Sims 3,The Sims and The Sims 2 timeline, then the alternative The Sims 4 timeline. Joey.eyeball (talk) 04:34, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it's completely separate. But calling one the "main" continuity and the other an "alternate" continuity implies that the main continuity is more valid or more correct. I'm saying that we should treat both continuities as equally valid. After all, what happens if we get The Sims 5 and The Sims 6 all based on the "alternative" continuity established in The Sims 4? Or what happens if The Sims 5 or some future game establishes a third continuity; do we still continue to treat the continuity established in the first three games as being the "main" one? I'm simply suggesting that we look to the possible future problems that come up if we deliberately choose to rule one set of events as the "main" set and therefore the proper set, while we treat another set as "alternative." It's a matter of wording and what that wording implies. -  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 05:05, August 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * ...and just to put it out there, EA has already registered website domain names for The Sims 5 and 6. So we should think towards the future, because they're almost certainly is going to be one. --k6ka (talk &#124; contribs) 11:29, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, it seems a Separate but equal clause comes into this case. The timeline of TS4 is separate from the other games, but is treated as an equal timeline, rather than be known as an alternate continuity. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 00:05, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

1 month later
The Sims 4 will be released in less than a week. A conclusion should for this thread should be devised soon. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 04:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Implementation
It seems this thread has reached a natural conclusion. The main points are:
 * 1) Eliminating Simbio-start.
 * 2) Breaking information for each game generation onto its own subpage (e.g. Bella Goth/Generation 1, Bella Goth/Generation 2, Bella Goth/Generation 3, and Bella Goth/Generation 4) while leaving the main Sim article to direct to the other four and to provide as much background information as possible without conflicting with the other pages.
 * 3) The Sims, The Sims 2 and The Sims 3 form together one distinct timeline of events, while The Sims 4 forms a separate but equally distinct and valid timeline. In cases where things differ between the timelines (e.g. the mother of Dina and Nina Caliente), both timelines will be considered equally valid.

Assuming everyone is alright with this, we should find a way to move forward, as we're already past the release date, and the longer we wait the harder it will be to reorganize this information on our articles.

I'm not a huge fan of using Main to link to the subpages. But, until we devise a better way to do it, it seems like the best option. Perhaps we can look at other wikis that divide articles like this (none come to mind immediately) to help inspire a way forward. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 18:14, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog -- JaseyJasee (talk) 16:22, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look at the Sonic Wiki, this is how they separate the original timeline from the Sonic Boom timeline (and many others). I think this will be a good way to separate The Sims - The Sims 3 timeline and The Sims 4 timeline :) http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(Sonic_Boom)

Another option is how they handle some templates on Bulbapedia. For an example:. You'll note, the template displays information for the most recent generation automatically, and provides links to earlier generations. Clicking on one of the page links loads the subpage relevant to that generation. The system is seamless enough to where the page jump isn't jarring, and each generation links to the other generations. The idea would need some adapting to work here, but I think it could. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 20:27, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

I went ahead and re-built my Bella Goth test pages to demonstrate what I'm describing here. Go to User:LostInRiverview/Bella Goth and go to the Biography section to see what I'm talking about.

The separate box above the Sim infobox could be incorporated fully into the template if we choose to go that route, or else it could be its own separate template. We could devise some way to make the template recognize what game generation it is, or we can simply have that information be added manually. I'm pretty sure we can use an #ifexist parser function to have it remove pages that don't exist like if, for instance, a Sim only appeared in generations two and four. We could have it set up to check if a properly-named page existed for the Sims's first generation biography and, since it doesn't, the link wouldn't appear. There's lots of little details left to work out, of course.

Keeping in mind that this is still a work-in-progress, what do you think? --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 02:48, September 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * LiR, your idea seems good and I like the example given, but the term "generation" seems a bit iffy, in my opinion. I think that we could use something in the lines of "The Sims 2" or "The Sims 2 Era" instead of "Generation Two", since EA and the fanbase don't really seem to use that term often. 10:32, September 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was looking for a name that demonstrated that the "generation" didn't simply apply to the base game, but to other games released simultaneously. I think your wording of "Era" does this better, without really having to explain to the reader what we mean when we say "Generation". --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 20:08, September 13, 2014 (UTC)


 * I support all the statements above. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 20:26, October 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not exactly sure. The idea of turning the sections into subpages doesn't appeal to me at all. How much of work would it take and how wide will it be implemented? We keep seeing it at TS4 POV. Because of the alternate timeline, we seek to divide all eras altogether, but how about Sims who don't belong to the alternate timeline? How about Sims like Mom Landgraab or Goopy GilsCarbo; will they also be separated into subpages? If they're not separated, then how far is the scope of this idea? Truthfully, if they're not separated, that would make the whole format inconsistent and we're only looking at the Sim articles that are more popular than others. OTOH, if they're separated, will the work invested in them be worth it?


 * Well, I suppose I was just overcomplicating everything, but I'm just saying I'm not fond of this idea. It's a great effort, though, and I really appreciate it. I still prefer using tabber though. FWIW, the current implementation of TS4 timeline looks pretty fine and neat to me. IMO, instead of putting "Life leading up to The Sims 4" header 3 subsection under "Biography" header 2 section, we should make a new "Alternate Timeline" header 2 section. That way, I think, is much simpler and neater.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  09:11, October 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * ETA: That "separating the subsection into a new section" idea is from me thinking that the point we're making is to make the page easy to distinguish between main timeline and alternate timeline without making everything too complicated. Because putting under "Biography" section makes it look mixed with the main timeline, just separating the section will do the trick already.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  09:15, October 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * I prefer the tabber as well, but as was mentioned above, it doesn't work on all devices, so it makes content within tabs inaccessible to people browsing on mobile devices. Also keep in mind that any change to the format would require a substantial amount of work, be that through subpages, tabbers, etc. Tabbers work in a somewhat similar manner, in that the page content is separated onto multiple subpages; the difference between the two systems being that information from the subpages is displayed on the "main" page through the tabber, versus viewed on the separate page through the alternate method. I think both systems avoid the pitfall of having the information on a single page, as currently pages about Sims in multiple games are (to put it politely) very disorganized and chaotic. For instance, we organize biography information in order of the in-series chronology (i.e. TS3 --> TS --> TS2), but the average gamer might not realize that there is such an in-universe order. As well, TS4, being a new timeline, does not fit into this chronology at all. Separating all the information seems the most logical move, as it avoids clutter and keeps like and relevant information combined together. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 07:43, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

Closure
It's been over 2 weeks with no response. As consensus seemed to have "magically" formed through the edit window and not this thread, and seeing that there seems to be no other issues or complaints with how articles for TS4 are coming out, I am closing this thread. If you want to revive this issue please start a new thread. --I am  k6ka  Talk to me!   See what I have done  02:26, October 21, 2014 (UTC)