The Sims Wiki talk:Admin Portal

TSW on other sites
Moved from the community portal talk

Discussion
Should we register TSW on other sites? I'm thinking facebook and twitter and all that. I'm gonna list some pros and cons:
 * Pros
 * Might attract more visitors.
 * Can help relay info without people visiting the site.
 * Can help relay info without people visiting the site.


 * Cons
 * Shared password.
 * Abuse/vandalism.
 * Inter-admin drama for not gaining access to accounts.
 * Inter-admin drama for not gaining access to accounts.


 * Suggested sites
 * Google Groups (for sharing passwords between admins)
 * Twitter
 * Facebook
 * Youtube

Personally I'm not a facebook man so I can't comment much on that, but I am beginning to see the advantages of Twitter. We could use it to post whenver we put up a blog post which goes in 'The Sims Wiki News' window, this means people following us on Twitter would get an update without having to check the site. It also means people can follow us vis RSS. At the moment our RSS feed is a standard 'recent changes' enabled by default by Wikia. Additionally we can use it for more general Sims 3 news as well, such as 'The Sims 3: Late Night announced, info available on the wiki' or something like that. I'd certainly be up for it. I already registered a Twitter account with our name in my email. If we do go ahead and adopt this idea, we'll probably need a joint email as well. Duskey ( talk ) 21:30, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments
 * Comments

The problem with all this is that is encourages stuff going on behind closed doors, which is really against the whole wiki concept, but I can see where it will come in handy. So far for affiliates I've been using my own email, but we could use a joint on as well. Another problem is, who do we give access to those servies? I mean the email and the twitter. Who should get the password? And I can already foresee the complaints about there being a 'club' within the administrator ranks which new admins might feel excluded from since they do not have access to the same tools as other admins do. Duskey ( talk ) 21:30, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Yet another hurdle is vandalism or abuse. We need administrators to keep on eye on these external services to prevent abuse and how do we handle it if an admin with password for the stuff goes rogue. I'm quite sure we would be unable to retrieve the accounts. Duskey ( talk ) 21:30, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Another thing: We'll need a place where we can share the passwords of these accounts. Nicmavr has suggested Google groups, so all you need a is a google account to join. Duskey ( talk ) 14:54, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

I added 'suggested sites' above. Duskey ( talk ) 12:57, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

I've made a Twitter so you can preview it: http://twitter.com/thesimswiki I even pimped it out in our colors etc. Duskey ( talk ) 08:18, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Twitter page looks good. I have been posting to Facebook with Wikia's Facebook Connect. --a_morris (talk) 19:05, August 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Cool. I'm not a FB user, so I can't really help there. How do you like Google Groups for password sharing among admins with access to the stuff? Unless anyone has any crazy objections I'd like to fire off the Twitter page in the coming days. Duskey ( talk ) 19:27, August 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Moved from the community portal discussion. Duskey ( talk ) 14:35, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Created The Sims Wiki:Admin Portal/sites. Duskey ( talk ) 15:31, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

The next step
What's the next step? The way I see it we just use Twitter to announce our news posting which go on the main page. Remember to include links directly to the post in Bit.ly format. Facebook should probably contain similar postings, I have no idea how that works though (Facebook that is).

The Google group is only used so all invited admins have the passwords. The Gmail is only used since all these sites (Twitter, Bit.ly etc) required an email to register. It should only be used for affiliation emails. It should not be used as a contact email, we have the wiki for that.

Personally I would hold off announcing all this until we get it on the right tracks, meaning all active 'crats control the google group and we make some userboxes like "I'm following TSW on Twitter" etc. Duskey ( talk ) 15:50, August 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've created a Facebook page for The Sims Wiki and linked (export Facebook posts to Twitter) it to our Twitter account. I am the admin of the page but I can add others through Facebook friends or email. --a_morris (talk) 18:46, August 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * A toddler informed me that there's now two FB pages on our Wiki, is this intentional? What do you mean you linked it to our twitter? Does this mean twitter posts will show up on facebook? Duskey ( talk ) 20:19, August 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * The page that was linked here before was not "owned" by anyone and therefore could not be posted to or administered in anyway. The second one is administered by me so far. I'm not positive if twitter posts will show up on facebook. It is either facebook -> twitter or facebook <-> twitter. --a_morris (talk) 21:30, August 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Clarifying: The link only goes facebook to twitter. The Twitter app on facebook can make posts only to personal profiles not pages but other applications can. --a_morris (talk) 17:14, August 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've made Template:Top area. I figure we'll use this on the main page when we decide to launch these sites. Duskey ( talk ) 16:11, August 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I found an application called Smart Twitter for Pages and linked our twitter account to update our facebook fan page (hopefully). Let me know if there are any problems. I am setting the app to allow retweets and @replies. It can also allow @mentions and #hashtags, lmk if I should set those as well. --a_morris (talk) 22:14, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just posted on facebook and it showed up on twitter, so it's definitely working that way. --a_morris (talk) 22:34, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Like Button code
Like Button code:



or



Announced
It's announced! We're not officially on Twitter, FB & YT. Can I get someone on FB to add the Twitter widget there? This way we won't HAVE to update both places. Duskey ( talk ) 22:16, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Admin Portal talk page archives
As you may notice, a few resolved discussions have been archived. I encourage you to go to the archive and check it out, since I think it may be a feature we want to duplicate, especially for discussion pages that have multiple archive pages. The system on the Admin Portal talk archive hides all discussions except those which the reader wants to see, allowing a person to easily find the discussion they're looking for without tons of needless scrolling. Further, I kept the checkmark/x mark 'resolved' statement out of the hidden table, since it gives a brief discussion of the outcome, and is useful in that regard. Any improvements to the layout are appreciated. I'll soon write up a brief description of how to add more items to that archive, but first...

I have been operating off an unspoken rule, made by me. I think, though, that it's worth discussing. I have been operating under the following "rules"; 1) a discussion will be ruled as "resolved" (and thus given a green check or red 'x') after it is apparent that no more discussion will be introduced; it's up to the individual admin in that case to determine if more discussion is still a significant possibility. After the discussion is considered resolved, I have kept it on this page for a few more weeks, so that readers (specifically admins) can take note of the decision and possibly re-open the discussion if needed. After that period, I have archived the contents. I think this system is ideal, as it gives plenty of time for review and discussion before the information is moved.

What are your thoughts, either on the "storage system" in the archive, or the rule of thumb regarding when discussions are resolved and when they're moved to the archives? -- Patrick (LostInRiverview) (talk)(blog)(random page) 22:39, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * A thing to notice is that the discussions were not archived in a typical order, but rather were archived based on the date that they were resolved. I think this is idea since often discussions can stretch over many months, or may be brought up and resolved relatively quickly. In this way, newly resolved discussions can be added chronologically in-order to the archive on an individual basis, rather than en masse. Thoughts on that as well? -- Patrick (LostInRiverview) (talk)(blog)(random page) 22:52, September 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it's a wonderful system, but I do think we should call it something other than an archive and maybe call it... resolved issues or something. To me an archive is still for when a talk page gets too large, then you move old discussions there. In my opinion the "resolved issues" can still have the archive header, but should have a different nav window to link to them, perhaps similar to the "Important discussions elsewhere" on the CP (Community Portal) talk page. -- Duskey talk 10:02, September 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Moved archive to The Sims Wiki talk:Admin Portal/resolved discussions. As for the navigation, I'll leave it alone for now since I'm not entirely sure what you're going for. -- Patrick (LostInRiverview) (talk)(blog)(random page) 15:07, September 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Check Template:Resolved/mini


 * Can that be used for the resolved stuff? I've seen something similar on Wikipedia. -- Duskey talk 15:00, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Updated the template to be smaller. -- Duskey talk 01:16, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The template is now being used on this page and on the resolved discussions page. I may craft a quick template that allows us to quickly set up a hidden discussion, specifically for the admin portal resolved discussions page. Otherwise, copying over the code isn't too daunting, just a bit annoying. -- Patrick (LostInRiverview) (talk)(blog)(random page) 21:28, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * How so? I suggest we test this system out here. In the future it might be an idea to adopt the system on Comm Portal and Dev Portal. -- Duskey talk 01:22, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

New 'Resolved Discussions' layout
The wikitable feature used on the resolved discussions page does not work under the new skin. Therefore, new archivals should utilize the collapsible navbox feature to hide previous discussions. Below is the code currently used for those boxes on the archive page:

Which produces this:

All discussions on that page will shortly be transferred into the new format. Unfortunately, the text in the navbox format automatically centers, and I don't know how to prevent this. If you have more experience with navboxes and know how to left-align the text, please tell me how, or else go onto the resolved discussions page and make the changes yourself. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 23:19, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

User with multiple accounts
I'm beginning to suspect a user for using multiple accounts to skew the votes of the featured content in their favor. The user has the most edits on God of the sims. I requested a CheckUser by Wikia staff and have just recieved a reply. It revealed that a series of usernames have edited from the same two IPs. Note that I am only listing the IPs since they're readily available in the wiki history and were chosen with the exact same criterias as the usernames.

The following 3 usernames have edited from the same IP address.

The following 6 usernames have also edited from the same IP address. The date after the links is the user creation date (see log)
 * 16:38, September 15, 2010
 * 16:42, September 15, 2010
 * 16:45, September 15, 2010
 * 16:49, September 15, 2010
 * 16:54, September 15, 2010
 * 16:54, September 15, 2010

All these usernames and IPs have voted for the same featured content within a very narrow time period. Check Featured article voting history and Featured media voting history. Note that times are UTC+2.


 * Sarah Crittur
 * 17:11, September 10, 2010 92.12.97.63
 * 17:17, September 10, 2010 Vampiregod
 * 22:12, September 10, 2010 92.12.97.63
 * 22:16, September 10, 2010 ~katana (Replacing IP vote above)
 * 12:04, September 11, 2010 God of the sims
 * 18:56, September 15, 2010 Yes me man
 * 19:30, September 15, 2010 Ffiontomas


 * Cho Sunwhun
 * 19:24, September 10, 2010 Vampiregod
 * 12:11, September 11, 2010 God of the sims
 * 18:36, September 15, 2010 92.11.39.32
 * 18:40, September 15, 2010 Mavgay
 * 18:44, September 15, 2010 Tortylok
 * 18:47, September 15, 2010 Kayleyzomik
 * 18:52, September 15, 2010 Ffiontomas
 * 18:58, September 15, 2010 Yes me man

These two are the most apparent ones, but if you check the contribs of the users and the history of the two voting pages, you'll clearly see the similarities in votes, the narrow timestamps (few minutes apart) and that the edits sometimes edit the other accounts' timestamps.

Note that 'God of the sims' is the only user out these to have edits outside the votes and even then it's limited to user page and my talk page. I know that IPs can be dynamic, but based on the timestamps and the similar edits of these users, I believe they are all the same person. Do you agree?

If they are all the same, what do we do about it? I would suggest removing all the votes and blocking each user permanently with the exception of God of the sims, which will recieve a limited, but harsh block. The person is clearly capable of changing IP so the IPs shouldn't be blocked. -- Duskey talk 09:09, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * With the possible exception of "God of the sims", it does appear that they are likely to be the same person. Since "God of the sims" mentioned sharing a computer, I'm open to the possibility that two people are involved and only one is using multiple accounts, but don't ask me to put any money on it. Dharden (talk) 16:01, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The obvious first step would be to remove the duplicate votes, except (possibly) for the vote cast by god of the sims. It seems fairly likely to me, based on the way the votes fell, that GotS is likely not being honest about what is really going on - I hate to make that conclusion, but the evidence in the case makes it appear likely. However, getting GotS' side of the story in this matter may not be a bad idea, before we end up issuing blocks. In any case, keep an eye on the behavior of the multiple IPs and users, and be prepared to issue sock bans if needed. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 18:16, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to bump this because there hasn't been any discussion in a few days. Let's get a resolution here, please, especially since the Featured Article is set to switch over in two days. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 21:09, September 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I notice that a user has appeared, with only one contribution other than votes, and that a userpage edit. I seriously doubt that the similarity to "Ffiontomas" is coincidental. I smell socks. Dharden (talk) 06:14, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I also notice there have been several votes from IP 92.2.108.201 withing a couple of days, but no other contributions. Dharden (talk) 06:20, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Well, since users can always log out and vote with their IP, the only way to prevent this is to forbid IP users from voting. I also think that a minimum of contributions requirement should be implemented, it's the only way to keep obvious sockpuppets from voting multiple times. We can't prevent people from doing it 100%, but we can discourage it. -- Duskey talk 11:15, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Local list users
FYI: some users (JAL & Walker guy94) whose sysop rights were revoked are still showing up as sysops on Special:ListUsers. --a_morris (talk) 00:21, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've noticed some other issues with the listusers page, mainly that it indicates that no one has edited at all since August. I've already tried contacting Wikia regarding the page, but I've received no response. I'm assuming that they'll get around to fixing it after the new skin has officially taken over (and after they work the kinks out of it). -- LostInRiverview talk · blog 03:39, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, also I'm not listed as a rolback user there. ---Guilherme Guerreiro 09:00, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Duskey is also not listed as a bureaucrat. ---Guilherme Guerreiro 11:24, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Special:ListUsers is now functioning correctly. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 15:41, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Admin Only
There has been an incident regarding the actions of, in which at least two TSW users ( and ) have participated in what I consider to be very hostile behavior. I have instituted a cool-down period for both of them (a 1-hour block from the wiki) and am working to prevent any further hostilities between users until we can decide what to do.

I do not feel that one administrator alone should be making the decisions in this situation, so I would really appreciate as much administrator input as possible. What are we going to do about Auror Andrachome (if anything), and what should we do about the other users? --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 21:12, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think auror should be banned forever because she has been negative to me on irc and tsw and to the people mentioned above.
 * If anyone disagrees tell me.--Monster2821 (Talk) 21:51, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think a user should be banned just because they're a little abrasive. However, if there was a consensus that her behavior has been consistently detrimental, then there would be grounds to do something. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 22:04, October 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Any pointers on where to look to get up to speed on all of this? Perhaps a quick recap with links would be sweet. I can't really give my opinion on something I know nothing about. -- Duskey talk 22:19, October 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I suggest edit wars are handled as normal: Warn, block, block longer, block even longer etc. as always. This goes for both participants. If someone disagrees with another users edit, it's a good idea to contact that user on their talk page and see if you can reach some sort of agreement there. If not, take it to the talk page of the article and see what other people think. I don't suggest any further action unless new violations of policies and normal conduct is made. -- Duskey talk 22:55, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is really about more than edit warring - if it were a simple case of an edit war, I wouldn't be bothered to even bring it up. This is about the conduct of members of this community. I think we need to decide what we are willing to accept from our members, whether the actions made by Auror can be allowed to stand, or whether we are going to allow open hostility towards Auror by the other members. We don't have any real policies that dictate what to do here. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 23:04, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's some pages on Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Edit warring, Wikipedia:Disruptive editing#Dealing with disruptive editors, Wikipedia:Requests for comment (this would appear to be the stage we are at), Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring (examples of disputes and resolutions.)


 * I don't know what the specific issue was but from what I saw, all three of them participated in incivility/personal attacks, but only and  were involved in an edit war, correct?, and the three-revert rule would apply to them. A brief block may be necessary for all involved (already done.) Once consensus is reached on the content issue (if not already) and they continue to edit-war, a stricter revert rule may be put in place for the users and topic(s) involved or a longer block. --a_morris (talk) 17:27, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

I've blocked Auror for 3 days due to &. She was previously warned and blocked for 1 day for the same thing (edit warring). I spoke to Auror on IRC where I explained the best course of action if you have an issue with an edit, is to contact the one who made the edit and work something out. If that's not possible I told her to take it to the article talk page so others can offer their opinion, but she has clearly chosen not to do this, hence the block. -- Duskey talk 20:39, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Consequently I've also blocked Guilherme for 1 day since he has recieved a warning for this earlier. -- Duskey talk 21:11, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Regular user response
Perhaps the rules of this wiki should be looked over and maybe have something about personal attacks added and be tougher on such attacks. I agree with a warning the first time an Edit War is started and maybe one hour to a day suspension if on is esculated a second time by the same users, both regular users and admins. Also maybe a limit on age for becoming a full admin. main reason i say this is because with age usually comes maturity. also i noticed the users in the issue above are below the age of 18 and Patrick, Duskey and Dharden are adults. just a suggestion.Bafendo 04:06, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Auror must receive only a warn about her behaviour, I think she was a bit mean to many users on this wiki and she doesn't want to change her mind and reactions on here. Thanks --- Guilherme Guerreiro (talk here) 22:07, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. --- » Яσdяigσ X  [̲̅т̲̅α̲̅l̲̅k̲̅][̲̅b̲̅l̲̅σ̲̅g̲̅] « 22:33, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that RodrigoX, GG, BobNewbie, and myself should all just get warnings and no perma-bans for any of us since all of us are hard-working users who just want to help out and add new information.
 * I don't want to sound like a victim, but I didn't do much to receive a warning; I just commented on you guys wars. Sure that I disliked Auror's bbehaviour, but I didn't actually entered in the war, I just commented, which IMO isn't that harsh to get a warning... --- » Яσdяigσ X  [̲̅т̲̅α̲̅l̲̅k̲̅][̲̅b̲̅l̲̅σ̲̅g̲̅] « 11:50, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes you're right Auror, me and you should receive warns, Rodrigo X not and BobNewbie maybe a friendly one (Note: I don't see you as an enemy and I hope we could repair our relationship)---Guilherme Guerreiro (talk here) 10:32, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * you don't know if somebody is an adult just by them telling you they are because people lie and it's harder or impossible to know that there telling the truth on the internet, these people could be 100 yr.old's , 5 yr.old's,etc.--Monster2821 (Talk) 04:22, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

it was just a suggestion, calm down. I also believe we should all recieve warnings.

All of us over reacted, and Auror, I apologize greatly. --BobNewbie (talk)(blog) 11:45, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

All I actully wanted to do was defend my friend, and those who got hurt by Auror. Rodrigo only commented, he does not really deserve a warning. --BobNewbie (talk)(blog) 12:52, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, I don't think we need to write warnings on talk pages for this, since everyone involved is already well aware of what has happened and most seem apologetic. In other words, let this message serve as the official warning for all. From what I can tell, this all stems from a couple issues, and I hate to pick on Auror here, but they are related to a lot of it.
 * So, to Auror specifically - I appreciate trying to help the wiki, but be mindful of what you say and how your actions come across to other users. What you may see as taking a firm stance, others may see as being mean or uncooperative. I will not hesitate to warn or block for what I see as negative behavior on your part.
 * With this comes a few ground rules for Auror (and for everyone). First, treat others with respect always. If you're going to do something which may cause a scene, please explain your actions and leave the door open to discussion. Do not edit war; if you make an edit and someone reverts it, instead of reverting it again, start a discussion on the talk page and work it out. Be mindful that many people here don't speak English as a first language - they have just as much of a right to edit here as a native English speaker. Instead of deleting content by them, edit it to correct grammar mistakes, and work with the users to improve their English.
 * To everyone else: taking action against other users is never OK. Always contact an administrator if another user violates policy or is in any way uncooperative - if necessary, administrators can act as mediators in a conflict. Do not take matters into your own hands, because that will only make matters worse.
 * Let's move on from this. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 17:48, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

User:The Sims 3 Late Night
What's the policy on someone using a game title as a username? Dharden (talk) 22:46, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is none. If you are going to block it, however, I would suggest that you allow the associated IP to create a new account with a different name. IF you do anything, make sure the user is aware of what you've done. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 23:06, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've drafted a proposed policy on the Policy talk page regarding this issue. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 06:19, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

User:Vampire1901
user:Vampire1901 is a Sock of simcontributor because he said his sim3.com username is:Elizabeth2345 on darthcookie's talkpage And Simcontributor said his sim3.com username is:Elizabeth2345 too. on his userpage.--Monster2821 (Talk) 20:11, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also there's more proof on irc just ask the people on there.--Monster2821 (Talk) 20:14, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

If you look at Special:Contributions/Vampire1901, you can see that the account was active while Simcontributor was blocked. Both User:Simcontributor and User talk:DarthCookie both mention the username, Elizabeth2345. I am usually on the IRC channel so feel free to ask me for any more information. GEORGIE GIBBONS  talk contributions 20:19, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Now that Simcontributor is blocked permanently, shouldn't the block on Vampire1901 be changed to permanant? GEORGIE  GIBBONS  talk contributions 14:14, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

I see that Vampire1901 is back. Since they weren't given a permanent block, should we give them one last chance? Dharden (talk) 16:22, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Weekly Facebook page stats

 * Split off of a discussion above - the above discussion has mostly ended.

The Sims Wiki
 * 69 monthly active users 4 since last week
 * 89 people like this 10 since last week
 * 1 wall post or comment this week 1 since last week
 * 113 visits this week 54 since last week

--a_morris (talk) 22:03, October 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * 82 monthly active users 15 since last week
 * 124 people like this 19 since last week
 * 4 wall posts and comments this week 4 since last week
 * 92 visits this week 30 since last week

--a_morris (talk) 22:22, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * 73 monthly active users down 9 since last week
 * 133 people like this up 9 since last week
 * 7 wall posts and comments this week up 3 since last week
 * 42 visits this week down 50 since last week

--a_morris (talk) 22:26, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

November 8, 2010


 * 71 monthly active users (down) 2 since last week
 * 140 people like this (up) 7 since last week
 * 0 wall posts and comments this week (down) 7 since last week
 * 37 visits this week (down) 5 since last week

November 15, 2010
 * 65 monthly active users (down) 6 since last week
 * 149 people like this (up) 9 since last week
 * 0 wall posts and comments this week no change since last week
 * 30 visits this week (down) 7 since last week

--a_morris (talk) 21:53, November 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * 79 monthly active users up 14 since last week
 * 153 people like this up 4 since last week
 * 1 wall post or comment this week up 1 since last week
 * 46 visits this week up 16 since last week

--a_morris (talk) 22:10, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

"Goth Family Leak" Blog
I think we should delete this blog as it claims very questionable information with no proof. I don't think it's right for a user to mislead other users as in that case. --  LostInRiverview talk · blog 16:21, November 12, 2010 (UTC)