Forum:Addressing issues with rights requests

Please forgive me if I don't write an incredibly long wall of text about the recent issues we've encountered with requests for rights (i.e. TSW:RFA and TSW:RFB). I doubt I need to rehash the cluster-you-know-what we just experienced with the most recent request, and I don't want to turn this thread into a place to complain about the opinions of others in that RfA. This is the place to solve the obviously flawed RfA and RfB system. Because there are a couple things which are broken, clearly.

I would like everyone to use this thread for several goals. I would like us all to come to some general agreement on how we want to determine consensus on Requests going forward. Whether this means we stick to the idea of counting support versus opposition votes, or whether this means we somehow objectively weigh each vote on the merits of its arguments, I don't know. If we decide to stick with voting, then we should at the very least come to an agreement on whether or not votes can be struck out, and on what grounds, and following which procedures. We should also determine what margin of support needs to be attained before a request can be successful. This is going to be a difficult matter to solve, so I emphasize patience and creative ideas.

Aside from the major job of sorting out consensus, there are a few simpler fixes I think we could implement. First, I think we should add a rule on RfAs limiting them to one request at a time. This rule currently exists on RfBs, but not RfAs, I think it should be implemented on RfAs too.

Second, I think the whole process might go smoother if we implement some sort of commentary period before the clock on voting begins. To those who think that the RfA process as it is is already too slow... I believe that having a period to work out issues with a candidate before the voting begins might be able to alleviate a lot of the problems that have come up. Here's what I'm thinking:

After an RfA or RfB passes the initial nomination/request stage, the bureaucrat facilitating the discussion opens a period for public comment. This would be a time where regular users can ask the candidate questions, give input on matters and give their general opinion, but not vote. My thinking is that this period would last a week, but that the Request would progress to a vote if no user leaves a comment for at least two days. This gives the option for users to weigh in before a vote, but also ensures that a vote begins if no one really wishes to comment. This would also make it possible to determine if there was overwhelming consensus for a user before the voting even begins... in such a case, voting could be skipped entirely as it wouldn't be necessary, though this should only really happen if support for a candidate is unanimous in the comment phase.

I think having a comment period would also alleviate the issues raised with possible "weak" votes of support or opposition, since the arguments for or against a candidate could be fully flushed out without them necessarily needing to carry any weight as a vote.

Finally, on a more urgent note, I believe that we should temporarily suspend Requests for Administratorship and Requests for Bureaucratship, effective immediately. I think we can all agree that there are several issues with the system as-is, and we owe it to ourselves and to potential applicants/nominees to solve the issues before new Requests are heard. Therefore I am immediately asking for feedback on whether RfAs and RfBs should be closed. Please let me know your thoughts on that matter, on anything else I've mentioned, or on anything relevant that you'd like to discuss.

--  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 06:33, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Okay, I have put some major thought into my opinion and have, at the best of my ability, tryed to word it properly so you can all understand it. Firstly, I agree with adding the rule to rfa. One request is hard enough, but having two requests? That will just confuse others and it will muck up the system. Also, I think that you should consider adding another rule into the rfa. It appears in most of the supporting votes of a | a most recently closed rfa that the point "x deserves this because..." appeared. I have to say, if I am being honest and I am always honest, that this is a pointless point. One doesn't deserve admin rights, the role of administrator doesn't come naturally to a user, you only become an administrator if the community agrees and states clearly why the user should have the role of administrator. Secondly, I am all for the commenting period of rfas before the voting period began. This way, if bureaucrats, admins or any other users have questions then the applicant/nominee can have the chance to answer the questions in a controlled environment without having the pressure of their request going into a vote without proper discussion. But, I think a week is too long, I was thinking of a time period around 2-4 days, but again that is my own personal opinion. The time period, if this was implemented, should be up to the bureaucrats and admins. And thirdly, you should highly consider suspending Requests for Administratorship and Requests for Bureaucratship, but just for temporarily. However, this may cause a problem if a user planning on apply for the role of admin, then the request page could be flooded with admin requests. Although, this can be avoided if the rule of one request at a time is implemented.

I do expect my opinion on this matter to have some controversy against it as I have mentioned my own rfa request in a point somewhere up above. I also can't help but feel personally responsible for this thread and | another thread being created. I just wanted my point to be put across to the community as I feel very highly about the rfa page. I hope that this point (and the point above) won't be read as in a selfish way, as that is the last thing I am. I just feel that these rules should have been implemented a little while ago. HanaGoth96 ( Neigh...? ) 07:35, May 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't put yourself down over that, I've personally had concerns about reasoning for a while. Your RfA might have been what instigated that thread but not you in general. 11:41, May 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * You aren't responsible for what happened, as Lab said. A lot of these issues have been under the surface for awhile, and while they cropped up during your RfA, they could have easily come up during someone else's RfA or RfB. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 13:21, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

This is going to show as a very difficult issue for the community to dissect but I'll try my best to put my views across.

Currently, the RfA page states that: "Strength of argument is more important than the number of votes." By this extension it would seem right to abide by this by emphasising reasoning in the voting process and ultimately have RfA mediated by a neutral bureaucrat. I'd say for an RfA/B to pass, we stick with between 66% (two-thirds) to maybe 70% of the support vote is needed.

As for the striking issue, and I really hope this is the absolute last time I have to explain this, that particular vote was striked because it was genuinely a rude comment to not just the nominee (who ironically the vote was supporting) but the community in general and had conflicted with general wiki policies. I'll admit I felt conflicted by my actions but the argument stands that reasoning used that can be taken negatively by other users on personal grounds is  absolutely  not allowed and must stop.

As for striking in general, the issue is that striking a vote could be seen as an attempt to shift consensus from one side to another unless it's applied very carefully. If a neutral bureaucrat is mediating the RfA once the voting period is up then it's their job to determine whether an argument is valid or not. Unless an argument in general is proven as completely false (like saying "user X does absolutely nothing so they shouldn't be admin" when they actually do a lot), seen as demeaning in one way or another or if it has absolutely nothing to do with the RfA/RfB then striking would be pointless.

As for the proposed commentary period. I'm indifferent. I can see how it may ease the process based on past events but I somewhat question the neccessity as one could easily oppose User X for something that they did/should have made a comment on during the commentary process only to no avail, which could effectively make things more heated.

To end my tl;dr paragraph, I support temporarily suspending RfA/RfB and I support the "one at a time" rule being adopted on RfA as it works so well for RfB. If I think of anything else I'd like to place on the table, I'll drop by later. 11:41, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Information: RfA and RfB pages have been closed and locked, pending the outcome of these discussions. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 22:43, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

I know this steers away from (part of) the original proposal a little bit but I've noticed some wikis put RfA/RfB nominations onto their own subpage, which makes things less cluttered, allows for more focused and straightforward discussion on a specific RfX (including a dedicated comments section) and ultimately eases workflow enough that we could allow multiple RfX nominations at a time if we wanted to (one could argue it's like the Forum to our CPTP). With this, I'm wondering if the community at large would be interested in this at all. Note that at this point, this doesn't contradict my above support for the one nom at a time regulation, I'm just putting this across as a potential alternative and to see what other's think. 22:01, May 13, 2013 (UTC)