Forum:Male or female?

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Recently, I have seen a lot of reverted edits (not quite an edit war) due to different opinions of the sex of some Sims. For example, the Sims Lucy Mole and Hannah Keebles. These Sims are glitched and were created early in TS2's production (or perhaps due to being created early in production). They have the appearance of females, but their sex is classified as male and they have the voice of a male.

I've seen different editors classify these Sims differently. In one case, I saw a user change the sex of the Sims to female (from male) and then be reverted to have their sex be male once again. As well, some pages simply don't have either male or female for the Sims. However, some editors will add male and be reverted.

Personally, I believe these Sims should be classified as male. SimPE classifies them as male, and their sex is male, despite having the appearance of a female. As well, I'd like to propose the addition of a possible category or something to properly classify these Sims. --Bleeh (talk!) (edits) 06:11, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
A small discussion we had on the IRC Channel. Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 06:22, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that discussion. Let´s leave age and gender empty, but write a note and explanation. Note to RoseGui: Waiting until someone leaves and reverting the edit is not good way to solve the problem. Mate1234 (talk) 10:39, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * I sincerely apologize for that unfortunate comment; it expressed frustration on my part for your insistence in reverting the edits, but it wasn't aimed at your personally. -- RoseGui ✿ ( talk ) 11:15, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'm kind of on the fence here. I think that the parameter should be kept empty, because, like the IRC discussion above, we'd have to be oblivious to all the bugs in SimPE. However, I also think that we should fill in the parameter, for consistency with the other Sim articles. ~ Waikikamukow  ( Anyone wanna chat? ) 11:26, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with what you say! But it's kind off difficult to determinate whether we'd follow what SimPE says about them or what they look like. Though, people who don't have SimPE might be weirded out and tempted to correct if we label them as male. -- RoseGui ✿ ( talk ) 11:35, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, and even with an explanation, leaving it blank might tempt some people who don't have SimPE to fill in the blank based on the Sim's appearance. I'm beginning to think we should have something to put in those fields that indicates that the appearance doesn't match the coding. Dharden (talk) 13:50, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

Could we edit Sim (and related templates) to allow a sex that isn't male or female? Then we could categorize these Sims into a category, such as "Category:Sims with ambiguous genders". Of course, along with this, we'd need to have a section in the article text describing why the Sim's sex is unknown or ambiguous. I agree with what Dharden said, though - leaving it blank will just encourage people to add possibly incorrect (depending on the perspective) information later on. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 16:33, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * We already have Category:Gender confused Sims. That might not be the best name, but unless it can be done as a bot-job, renaming a category is enough of a pain that we might as well use it. Dharden (talk) 18:42, August 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * I can easily have LiRBot rename that category. I think that would be our best bet. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 19:01, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'm late for the discussion, but I see that the recent edits show that gender confused Sims eventually had their gender parameter removed, which I see is the best / neutral solution. Has this discussion made its result?  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  08:52, August 5, 2013 (UTC)

I've added a section on ambiguity to our page on Gender. My suggestion is to edit Sim (and related templates) to accept the parameter of 'ambiguous' for the Sim's sex; if that parameter is given, in place of the male/female on the bio template, it would have a link to the section I've referenced above, and categorize the Sim into Category:Gender confused Sims (unless we rename the category). I think this would prevent people from later adding one gender or the other, and explains the situation to those who might be confused about the discrepancy. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 17:08, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I like this idea! I also liked the idea that you previously suggested of renaming the category to Category:Sims with ambiguous genders. Having the category and parameter have similar names would be the best imo. --Bleeh (talk!) (edits) 21:19, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Seconded! ~ Waikikamukow  ( Anyone wanna chat? )  22:23, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

What if we don´t leave age and gender empty? We can write their age and gender how they actually appear, but leave a note for their gender/age confusion (e.g.: Mellissa Sims- we write Teen, Female, but leave a note for their glitch). Mate1234 (talk) 18:55, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * My problem with adding what they appear as to their template is that it's technically not what they are. Ex. Melissa Sims is recognized by the game as an adult male, despite her appearance being that of a teenaged female. It's obvious EA intended for her to be a teenage girl, but it's technically not correct. --Bleeh (talk!) (edits) 21:19, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mate, that's exactly the reason why this discussion was brought up. We can't decide which to input to the parameter, and if we don't decide, we'll just keep on edit warring. To avoid this, I strongly recommend that you go to neutral side -- which is either to leave the parameters blank or follow LiR's suggestion. If you insist on adding the parameter your way, this kind of issue will never end.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  18:48, August 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * On a second thought, maybe I didn't read it right since it's pretty late now... But let me just say we here are confused whether to put up the parameter as what they appear or what they technically should be. Some Sim articles actually go with the former, while some others go with the latter. I say to avoid this now, we should decide it here. I think we can use LiR's suggestion.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  18:53, August 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, then I recomend to leave parameters empty, (for gender/age confused Sims). Mate1234 (talk) 18:54, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

This thread hasn't reached a consensus yet. Bump. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 22:47, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * The current workaround we're having is that we leave the parameters empty. That has sorted out the problem now, but if we really want to implement the "Category:Sims with ambiguous genders", it's not really difficult to do. After all, we've done it with Category:Gender confused Sims. It's a matter of re-categorization.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  15:38, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Wrap-up
This issue still isn't resolved, but several people have shown interest in the discussion. So, with the goal of reaching a definitive conclusion, this thread is going to proceed to a vote on the course of action. There are a few options to choose from:
 * 1) Fill the gender and age parameters with the gender and age they appear to be, regardless of the game data. Include a brief explanation of the discrepancy in the main article text.
 * 2) Fill the gender and age parameters with the gender and age as defined in SimPE, regardless of the Sims' appearance. Include a brief explanation of the discrepancy in the main article text.
 * 3) Fill the gender and age parameters with a third option (e.g. ambiguous) and link it to an article describing the ambiguity, or to a section on the article describing the ambiguity.
 * 4) Leave the parameters blank, with an explanation in the main article text.

We'll let this run for a few days and see what the conclusion is. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 16:43, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm voting for #3 as I think it's the best compromise between #1 and #2. --Bleeh (talk!) (edits) 18:15, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd go with option #3.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  03:42, August 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Option 3 because it seems like the only logical solution to mitigating this issue. 1 and 2 will still cause problems. 12:32, August 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm voting for option #3, too. Karu Katerchen (talk) 14:11, August 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Option #3 seems to be our best bet seeing as it will cause no problems. Beds (parlare - da leggere ) 19:13, August 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm for option #3. The other options will eventually cause problems because sooner or later, someone will notice the "incorrect" or "missing" information without noticing the explanation, and will try to "fix" it. Dharden (talk) 19:41, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Option #3 no doubt!  19:08, August 25, 2013 (UTC) 

Conclusion
The response above seems to be overwhelmingly in support of the third option. As a result, Sims with ambiguous ages and genders will have 'ambiguous' marked in their infoboxes, and they will be categorized based on this parameter. It would also be helpful to have this information reflected somewhere in the article text to explain the situation. This conclusion may take some time to implement, but the general guideline that has been established should be able to guide us from now on.

Thank you to everyone who participated in figuring out this issue. Thread closed. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 00:56, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

Not done yet
Ok, I re-opened this thread while we work on implementing what it decided. I've gone ahead and moved the pages from Category:Gender confused Sims to Category:Sims with an ambiguous gender. The next step is to edit the Sim bio templates to recognize the parameter 'ambiguous' (I suppose we could also make it recognize 'ambig' as a valid response too). If someone wants to hop on that, go ahead. I'll be creating Category:Sims with an ambiguous age to catch any Sims falling into that criteria. I don't know of any Sims this applies too (that's not to say it doesn't), so I think we can probably wait for the bio templates to be updated before we work on rolling this out fully.

Something of note - currently the articles in Category:Sims with an ambiguous gender are manually categorized; when the bio templates are updated, that manual category can probably be removed from the page.

Please use this thread to keep everyone updated on implementation of this decision. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 01:17, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've taken care of the templates, LiR. Now the Sims will be automatically categorized if their age or gender parameter input is "Ambiguous". We can't input "Ambig" because that's what will appear in the infobox as well.


 * By the way, if a Sim has ambiguous gender, chances are they're glitchy and have ambiguous age as well, but not all of them are like this. See Melissa Sims. Did it go well?  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  03:38, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * I made a minor change to Sim to automatically link ambiguous gender to the appropriate page section on Gender; I'm not sure where a link should be made in regards to ambiguous age - perhaps life state?
 * One additional thing I've noticed which probably warrants some discussion is the use of gender pronouns (he/she, his/hers, him/her, etc) in the body of the article. The gender used in the text seems to match the gender that the Sim appears to be- do we want to keep this, or should we switch the pronouns to be gender neutral? --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 14:15, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that we should leave he/she in body of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mate1234 (talk • contribs) 14:45, August 31, 2013‎ (UTC) - Please sign your comments with ~
 * Did you mean life stage? Personally, in that sense, I prefer if we use the pronoun of what Sim appears to be. Using he/she, him/her, and his/her all the time sounds confusing to me. So, Sims like Melissa Sims should use female pronouns. I know this sounds subjective unlike our decision for the infobox parameters, but that's my opinion.  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  16:03, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I meant 'life stage', my bad. And I agree on the use of the pronoun that the Sim appears to be, since it's most likely to be the originally-intended gender. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 16:16, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * On a second thought, I'll strengthen my statement. I opt to use the pronoun of what Sim appears to be. We should caller her "she" if the Sim appears female even though the gender in-game is male, and vice versa.


 * When a Sim has an ambiguous gender, it might be as a result of computer error, developer error, or glitch (changing the gender flag with an external program). It is the computer or the game itself that confuses the Sim's gender. A Sim appears as a female, but she behaves like a male -- that's because the game cannot recognize her actual gender, which is an error.


 * However, we are not computer. We know if the Sim appears as female, but the gender flag is set as male, she is still a female. Just because someone changed the flag, doesn't mean we can instantly call her "him", or even confuse her as "he/she". Take an example of James Mole and Lucy Mole. James is normal, but Lucy is treated as a male. Normally, we'll think that a parent of a Sim is a father and a mother, not two fathers, unless the game or storyline states otherwise, so we should call Lucy "her", not "him". She obviously was meant to be a female, but somehow the gender was wrong. We know this and we can recognize this. There's no way the developer meant to create a male, but ended up making a female figure, right?  Nikel  Talk  –  Vote!  04:53, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Closing the thread, as this seems well-resolved. --  LostInRiverview talk ~ blog 22:05, September 20, 2013 (UTC)