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Forum:IRC channel reform: Difference between revisions
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{{Forumheader|Community discussions|archive}}
Hello, I'm [[User:K6ka|K6ka]], the IRC contact for the wiki. As you may or may not already know, the wiki has an [[TSW:IRC|IRC channel]] on the freenode network, but aside from name and policy, that's where the similarities pretty much end.
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—[[User:K6ka|'''<span style="color:#0040FF">k6ka</span>''']] <span title="Canadian!" style="color:red">🍁</span> ([[User talk:K6ka|<span style="color:#0080FF">Talk</span>]] · [[Special:Contributions/K6ka|<span style="color:#0B4C5F">Contributions</span>]]) 15:18, June 3, 2016 (UTC)
'''17/06/2016'''
Okay, as consensus seems to be favourable, the new channel hierarchies have been implemented and the relevant pages ([[The Sims Wiki:Requests for IRC Channel operator]] and [[The Sims Wiki:IRC Channel Operators]]) have been updated. Now, as I mentioned, the whole purpose of this proposal was to remove chanops that do not know how to use IRC. As such, I suggest the following user right changes be implemented:
* <s>[[User:Beds|Beds]] be deopped due to lack of IRC knowledge</s> (User has voluntarily resigned)
* <s>[[User:LostInRiverview|LostInRiverview]] be deopped as he has voluntarily surrendered his op flags</s> (This change has already been implemented, thank you for your services!)
* [[User:C.Syde65|C.Syde65]] be deopped due to lack of IRC knowledge
* [[User:Nikel23|Nikel23]] be deopped due to lack of IRC knowledge
* [[User:WikiBuilder1147|WikiBuilder1147]] be deopped due to inactivity (According to freenode policy his nickname has pretty much expired and can be dropped at any time)
* [[User:Frostwalker|Frostwalker]] be deopped due to inactivity (Same as WikiBuilder1147)
I still do not know what to do with [[User:Random Ranaun|Random Ranaun]], but they have a Wikia vHost/cloak, and I am comfortable with keeping him on the team. [[User:Woganhemlock|Woganhemlock]] is inactive, but he is the only other administrator who knows how to use IRC, and so I am reluctant to simply deop him.
Again, I know this is a pretty drastic change, which is why I have given targeted chanops plenty of time to respond to queries. I shall give them more time again to respond to this change. I am also very aware that this sounds like a form of punishment or "Arbitration Remedy", but know that '''I do not mean to deop you because you are at fault; this is not a punishment'''. You may reapply for chanops through the regular venues once you have attained sufficient IRC knowledge. —[[User:K6ka|'''<span style="color:#0040FF">k6ka</span>''']] <span title="Canadian!" style="color:red">🍁</span> ([[User talk:K6ka|<span style="color:#0080FF">Talk</span>]] · [[Special:Contributions/K6ka|<span style="color:#0B4C5F">Contributions</span>]]) 11:53, June 17, 2016 (UTC)
'''03/07/2016'''
It has been a month since I started this thread. Relevant policy pages have been updated and the channel is pretty much set. I have waited over a month for affected users to respond; as I believe I have waited long enough, I have applied the agreed-upon changes. The following chanops have been deopped, but will still be [[TSW:IRC#Voice|voiced]] on the channel:
* [[User:C.Syde65|C.Syde65]]
* [[User:Frostwalker|Frostwalker]]
* [[User:Nikel23|Nikel23]]
* [[User:WikiBuilder1147|WikiBuilder1147]]
Again, like I said, this is not meant to be a punishment, but with the betterment of the IRC channel in mind. If you have any questions or comments about your deopping, you are more than welcome to [[User talk:K6ka|contact me]].
That being said, this thread has gone silent, and since the proposed changes have now been made, I am archiving this thread. Any additional comments should go in a new thread. Thanks, —[[User:K6ka|'''<span style="color:#0040FF">k6ka</span>''']] <span title="Canadian!" style="color:red">🍁</span> ([[User talk:K6ka|<span style="color:#0080FF">Talk</span>]] · [[Special:Contributions/K6ka|<span style="color:#0B4C5F">Contributions</span>]]) 02:27, July 3, 2016 (UTC)
;Notes
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At least at the moment. I may reconsider changing my thoughts on this possibility in the future. ― '''[[User:C.Syde65|<font color="maroon">C.Syde</font>]]''' ([[User talk:C.Syde65|<font color="black">talk</font>]] | [[:Special:Contributions/C.Syde65|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]) 00:08, June 3, 2016 (UTC)
:@[[User:C.Syde65|C.Syde65]]: <span style="color:rgb(0,133,96);font-family:Georgia,'DejaVuSerif',serif;line-height:22.399999618530273px;">At the present time, I am hesitant to support the possibility of completely revoking the operator abilities from any current admin operators that only became operators because they became administrators.</span> The problem with that is, if we don't remove those flags from said people, it defeats the whole purpose of this proposal — to get rid of ops that don't know how to use IRC. Most of these people barely know how to use their op tools, so not having them isn't going to hurt anybody. They may re-request once they actually have gained competence in using IRC. —[[User:K6ka|'''<span style="color:#0040FF">k6ka</span>''']] <span title="Canadian!" style="color:red">🍁</span> ([[User talk:K6ka|<span style="color:#0080FF">Talk</span>]] · [[Special:Contributions/K6ka|<span style="color:#0B4C5F">Contributions</span>]]) 11:24, June 6, 2016 (UTC)
:Well I do know how to kick users from the IRC Channel, but I don't know how to do much else, which is why I wouldn't mind if any other abilities were revoked.
:I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of completely revoking the operator abilities from any current admin operators, I'm just not sure at the moment if it's something that I'm willing to support. ― '''[[User:C.Syde65|<font color="maroon">C.Syde</font>]]''' ([[User talk:C.Syde65|<font color="black">talk</font>]] | [[:Special:Contributions/C.Syde65|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]) 20:37, June 6, 2016 (UTC)
::Only knowing how to kick users? Doesn't count for much. —[[User:K6ka|'''<span style="color:#0040FF">k6ka</span>''']] <span title="Canadian!" style="color:red">🍁</span> ([[User talk:K6ka|<span style="color:#0080FF">Talk</span>]] · [[Special:Contributions/K6ka|<span style="color:#0B4C5F">Contributions</span>]]) 11:06, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
:::'''Weak support''' — One side of me is fully supportive of everything you've proposed, while the other side of me is debating whether I should support the idea of revoking channel operator rights from certain admins, even if those admins might not necessarily want their status revoked. But I'm very busy with my other hobbies, which probably explains why I haven't been using IRC much. So hopefully I won't regret weakly supporting this. ― '''[[User:C.Syde65|<font color="maroon">C.Syde</font>]]''' ([[User talk:C.Syde65|<font color="black">talk</font>]] | [[:Special:Contributions/C.Syde65|<font color="black">contribs</font>]]) 22:58, June 9, 2016 (UTC)
===Support===
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Just my two cents on the issue.
[[User:MrBenC|Ben]] ([[User talk:MrBenC|talk]]) 05:29, June 3, 2016 (UTC)
I support the proposal as written. Since IRC exists as a separate entity from the wiki, it only makes sense that the rules that govern its functions should be independent of on-wiki rules. I have operator privileges in the channel despite my admittedly poor grasp of IRC channel operations (I always forget channel commands, which isn't a good thing when a quick response to an ongoing incident is needed), and I do not feel that I should have those rights simply by virtue of my being an admin here. Up to now I have held onto those rights to ensure that there are at least some people in the channel who still have them, but if this proposal is passed (regardless of any agreement on grandfathering in sysops like myself) I will be waiving operator rights. As Ben said, being wiki savvy and being IRC savvy are not one in the same.
Regarding the grandfather clause, I think that there should not be one. I think that we as a group can agree on who should and should not have operator rights at the present time, and then add or remove other individuals as time progresses. If a main reason for making this proposal is that sysops who are not IRC savvy have operator rights and shouldn't, then we have to go all the way and recommend that those persons have those rights removed. It's not a personal slight against anyone who may have those rights presently, it's simply an admission of the fact that some are more experienced in IRC operating than others.
One additional question I have is regarding how new operators, half-ops, etc. for the channel will be selected. Will this selection process take place on-wiki, or in the channel. In the former case, will wiki users who do not participate in the channel be allowed to voice their opinion on applicants, and will these applicants be required to be active on TSW, Wikia, or to even have a Wikia account? In the case of the latter, how will those selections be conducted in a fair manner? Will the IRC contact serve as a "bureaucrat" and simply promote whomever he/she deems worthy, or will some sort of democratic system be implemented? In the latter case I don't have a problem with K6ka promoting people unilaterally, since his position as IRC contact was community confirmed; if we keep the rule that the IRC contact must be confirmed on-wiki (and allow IRC-active, wiki-inactive users to participate in such discussions), then I have no issue with allowing the IRC contact to serve as the person awarding and removing rights in the channel. But if there is a way to implement some form of channel voting or democracy, I would be interested in that and may support that instead. -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<span style="color:navy;">LiR</span>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] • [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]] • [[Special:Contributions/LostInRiverview|<font color="green">contribs</font>]]</sup>''' 22:40, June 3, 2016 (UTC)
:@[[User:LostInRiverview|LostInRiverview]]: My thoughts on appointing new chanops would be that the existing, on-wiki process would be kept, and the page would simply be split up into three sections: one for nominations for half-ops, one for ops, and one for superops. More weight would definitely be given to comments made by IRC regulars (It wouldn't be that much different for a request for Wikia chat moderator if half the people that comment on it never set foot in chat). As for the users of IRC that do not have Wikia accounts, I don't know. Perhaps we could have a bot that could publicly log the channel and we could clearly see it when users commented on a candidate? Recently I brought [[m:wm-bot|wm-bot]] into the channel and it has an option to publicly log the channel. If enabled, logs would be periodically posted [http://wm-bot.wmflabs.org/browser/? here]. Then, when there's a nomination for chanop going on, people can just type in <code>!vote <name of candidate> <rationale></code>, and that's how they'd provide their input. I do know that I'm going to need the channel's permission to have public logging enabled, if that's to happen. —[[User:K6ka|'''<span style="color:#0040FF">k6ka</span>''']] <span title="Canadian!" style="color:red">🍁</span> ([[User talk:K6ka|<span style="color:#0080FF">Talk</span>]] · [[Special:Contributions/K6ka|<span style="color:#0B4C5F">Contributions</span>]]) 23:14, June 3, 2016 (UTC)
::I don't really have anything to add, as LiR pretty much summed it up in his large block of text. Ultimately, I support these changes to IRC. ~ [[User:Beds|<font color="purple">'''Beds'''</font>]] <sup>([[User_talk:Beds|<font color="#66CDAA">'''talk'''</font>]] - [[User_blog:Beds|<font color="#66CDAA">'''blog'''</font>]])</sup> 20:54, June 11, 2016 (UTC)
==Against==
by approving this you are just giving the sims wikis irc channel away to anybody but the sims wiki. its the irc channel for the sims wiki and should be run by the community of the sims wiki. if this goes through then eventually the irc channel wont be run by the sims wiki at all.
if your going to do this then will the sims wiki use the wikia chat instead? [[Special:Contributions/72.193.176.153|72.193.176.153]] ([[User talk:72.193.176.153|talk]]) 21:56, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
:Wikia Chat is and will always be available, and it is separate from the IRC channel. Already there are community users that stick with IRC and community users that stick with Wikia Chat. Both are open and you may chat in either one or both of them if you wish.
:<span style="color:rgb(0,133,96);font-family:Georgia,'DejaVuSerif',serif;line-height:22.399999618530273px;">[it] should be run by the community of the sims wiki</span>. Except it isn't. Even as it stands now, the IRC channel is largely inhabited and run by people who are not very active on The Sims Wiki (They do have an on-wiki presence, but they seldom use it). The IRC channel is already de facto ''not'' run by The Sims Wiki's community as a whole, mostly because very few people in the wiki community use it. Also, these changes don't change the fact that ops still need a Wikia account to request ops in the channel. The community, it seems, already doesn't really care about the IRC channel, so "giving it away" (which is a misnomer) isn't going to affect the wiki that much anyway.
:And if the argument is, "Shouldn't active community members be the ones selected for ops?", see MrBenC's comments above, and also keep in mind that some of our chat moderators for our on-wiki Wikia chat are not really regular editors. On Wikia Chat and IRC, a user's competency in handling situations on chat should be what is evaluated when deciding who gets moderator/ops, not what they do on-wiki. —[[User:K6ka|'''<span style="color:#0040FF">k6ka</span>''']] <span title="Canadian!" style="color:red">🍁</span> ([[User talk:K6ka|<span style="color:#0080FF">Talk</span>]] · [[Special:Contributions/K6ka|<span style="color:#0B4C5F">Contributions</span>]]) 23:44, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
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