Anonymous user
Forum:Male or female?: Difference between revisions
m
no edit summary
imported>Mate1234 |
imported>LostInRiverview mNo edit summary |
||
| (30 intermediate revisions by 10 users not shown) | |||
Line 1:
{{Forumheader|Community discussions|archive}}
{{Resolved/mini|res| Sims with ambiguous genders/ages will have this noted in the Sim infobox and the article text, and will be categorized accordingly. In-article text should be based on the "apparent" gender and age of the Sim.}}
Recently, I have seen a lot of reverted edits (not quite an edit war) due to different opinions of the sex of some Sims. For example, the Sims [[Lucy Mole]] and [[Hannah Keebles]]. These Sims are glitched and were created early in TS2's production (or perhaps due to being created early in production). They have the appearance of females, but their sex is classified as male and they have the voice of a male.
Line 20 ⟶ 21:
I've [[Gender#Gender ambiguity|added a section]] on ambiguity to our page on [[Gender]]. My suggestion is to edit {{t|Sim}} (and related templates) to accept the parameter of 'ambiguous' for the Sim's sex; if that parameter is given, in place of the male/female on the bio template, it would have a link to the section I've referenced above, and categorize the Sim into [[:Category:Gender confused Sims]] (unless we rename the category). I think this would prevent people from later adding one gender or the other, and explains the situation to those who might be confused about the discrepancy. -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<font color="navy">LostInRiverview</font>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] ~ [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]]</sup>''' 17:08, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
:I like this idea! I also liked the idea that you previously suggested of renaming the category to ''Category:Sims with ambiguous genders''. Having the category and parameter have similar names would be the best imo. --'''[[user:Bleeh|<font color="#FC58B8">Bleeh</font>]]'''<sup>[[User talk: Bleeh|<font color="#EBACA4">(talk!)</font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Bleeh|<font color="#EBACA4">(edits)</font>]]</sup> 21:19, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
::Seconded! ~ [[User:Waikikamukow|<font color="6a2286">Waikikamukow</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Waikikamukow|<font color="00b0f4">Anyone wanna chat?</font>]])</small> 22:23, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
What if we don´t leave ''age'' and ''gender'' empty? We can write their age and gender how they actually appear, but leave a note for their gender/age confusion (e.g.: Mellissa Sims- we write Teen, Female, but leave a note for their glitch). [[User:Mate1234|Mate1234]] ([[User talk:Mate1234|talk]]) 18:55, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
:My problem with adding what they appear as to their template is that it's technically not what they are. Ex. Melissa Sims is recognized by the game as an adult male, despite her appearance being that of a teenaged female. It's obvious EA intended for her to be a teenage girl, but it's technically not correct. --'''[[user:Bleeh|<font color="#FC58B8">Bleeh</font>]]'''<sup>[[User talk: Bleeh|<font color="#EBACA4">(talk!)</font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Bleeh|<font color="#EBACA4">(edits)</font>]]</sup> 21:19, August 5, 2013 (UTC)
::Mate, that's exactly the reason why this discussion was brought up. We can't decide which to input to the parameter, and if we ''don't'' decide, we'll just keep on edit warring. To avoid this, I strongly recommend that you go to neutral side -- which is either to leave the parameters blank or follow LiR's suggestion. If you insist on adding the parameter your way, this kind of issue will never end. [[User:Nikel23|'''<span style="color:#007FFF; text-shadow: #ACE5EE 0 4px 4px;">Nikel</span>''']] [[User talk:Nikel23|<span style="color: #30D5C8 ; text-shadow: #00FFEF 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Talk''</sub></span>]] <sub>–</sub> [[The Sims Wiki:Featured Media/Voting|<span style="color:red ; text-shadow:#E97451 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Vote!''</sub></span>]] 18:48, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
:::On a second thought, maybe I didn't read it right since it's pretty late now... But let me just say we here are confused whether to put up the parameter as what they appear ''or'' what they technically should be. Some Sim articles actually go with the former, while some others go with the latter. I say to avoid this now, we should decide it here. I think we can use LiR's suggestion. [[User:Nikel23|'''<span style="color:#007FFF; text-shadow: #ACE5EE 0 4px 4px;">Nikel</span>''']] [[User talk:Nikel23|<span style="color: #30D5C8 ; text-shadow: #00FFEF 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Talk''</sub></span>]] <sub>–</sub> [[The Sims Wiki:Featured Media/Voting|<span style="color:red ; text-shadow:#E97451 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Vote!''</sub></span>]] 18:53, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
:::Ok, then I recomend to leave parameters empty, (for gender/age confused Sims). [[User:Mate1234|Mate1234]] ([[User talk:Mate1234|talk]]) 18:54, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
This thread hasn't reached a consensus yet. ''Bump''. -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<font color="navy">LostInRiverview</font>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] ~ [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]]</sup>''' 22:47, August 14, 2013 (UTC)
:The current workaround we're having is that we leave the parameters empty. That has sorted out the problem now, but if we really want to implement the "Category:Sims with ambiguous genders", it's not really difficult to do. After all, we've done it with [[:Category:Gender confused Sims]]. It's a matter of re-categorization. [[User:Nikel23|'''<span style="color:#007FFF; text-shadow: #ACE5EE 0 4px 4px;">Nikel</span>''']] [[User talk:Nikel23|<span style="color: #30D5C8 ; text-shadow: #00FFEF 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Talk''</sub></span>]] <sub>–</sub> [[The Sims Wiki:Featured Media/Voting|<span style="color:red ; text-shadow:#E97451 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Vote!''</sub></span>]] 15:38, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
==Wrap-up==
This issue still isn't resolved, but several people have shown interest in the discussion. So, with the goal of reaching a definitive conclusion, this thread is going to proceed to a vote on the course of action. There are a few options to choose from:
# Fill the gender and age parameters with the gender and age they appear to be, regardless of the game data. Include a brief explanation of the discrepancy in the main article text.
# Fill the gender and age parameters with the gender and age as defined in SimPE, regardless of the Sims' appearance. Include a brief explanation of the discrepancy in the main article text.
# Fill the gender and age parameters with a third option (e.g. ambiguous) and link it to an article describing the ambiguity, or to a section on the article describing the ambiguity.
# Leave the parameters blank, with an explanation in the main article text.
We'll let this run for a few days and see what the conclusion is. -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<font color="navy">LostInRiverview</font>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] ~ [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]]</sup>''' 16:43, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
:I'm voting for #3 as I think it's the best compromise between #1 and #2. --'''[[user:Bleeh|<font color="#FC58B8">Bleeh</font>]]'''<sup>[[User talk: Bleeh|<font color="#EBACA4">(talk!)</font>]]</sup> <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Bleeh|<font color="#EBACA4">(edits)</font>]]</sup> 18:15, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
::I'd go with option #3. [[User:Nikel23|'''<span style="color:#007FFF; text-shadow: #ACE5EE 0 4px 4px;">Nikel</span>''']] [[User talk:Nikel23|<span style="color: #30D5C8 ; text-shadow: #00FFEF 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Talk''</sub></span>]] <sub>–</sub> [[The Sims Wiki:Featured Media/Voting|<span style="color:red ; text-shadow:#E97451 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Vote!''</sub></span>]] 03:42, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
:::Option 3 because it seems like the only logical solution to mitigating this issue. 1 and 2 will still cause problems. {{LabSig}} 12:32, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
::::I'm voting for option #3, too. [[User:Karu Katerchen|Karu Katerchen]] ([[User talk:Karu Katerchen|talk]]) 14:11, August 23, 2013 (UTC)
:::::Option #3 seems to be our best bet seeing as it will cause no problems. [[User:Beds|<font color="#6B1D51">'''Beds'''</font>]] <sup>([[User_talk:Beds|<font color="#512d17">'''parlare'''</font>]] - [[User_blog:Beds|<font color="#512d17">'''da leggere'''</font>]])</sup> 19:13, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
::::::I'm for option #3. The other options will eventually cause problems because sooner or later, someone will notice the "incorrect" or "missing" information without noticing the explanation, and will try to "fix" it. [[User:Dharden|Dharden]] ([[User_talk:Dharden|talk]]) 19:41, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Option #3 no doubt! {{JasonSignature}} '''<small><sub>19:08, August 25, 2013 (UTC)</sub></small>'''
==Conclusion==
The response above seems to be overwhelmingly in support of the third option. As a result, Sims with ambiguous ages and genders will have 'ambiguous' marked in their infoboxes, and they will be categorized based on this parameter. It would also be helpful to have this information reflected somewhere in the article text to explain the situation. This conclusion may take some time to implement, but the general guideline that has been established should be able to guide us from now on.
Thank you to everyone who participated in figuring out this issue. <s>Thread closed.</s> -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<font color="navy">LostInRiverview</font>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] ~ [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]]</sup>''' 00:56, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
== Not done yet ==
Ok, I re-opened this thread while we work on implementing what it decided. I've gone ahead and moved the pages from Category:Gender confused Sims to [[:Category:Sims with an ambiguous gender]]. The next step is to edit the Sim bio templates to recognize the parameter 'ambiguous' (I suppose we could also make it recognize 'ambig' as a valid response too). If someone wants to hop on that, go ahead. I'll be creating [[:Category:Sims with an ambiguous age]] to catch any Sims falling into that criteria. I don't know of any Sims this applies too (that's not to say it doesn't), so I think we can probably wait for the bio templates to be updated before we work on rolling this out fully.
Something of note - currently the articles in Category:Sims with an ambiguous gender are manually categorized; when the bio templates are updated, that manual category can probably be removed from the page.
Please use this thread to keep everyone updated on implementation of this decision. -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<font color="navy">LostInRiverview</font>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] ~ [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]]</sup>''' 01:17, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
:I've taken care of the templates, LiR. Now the Sims will be automatically categorized if their age or gender parameter input is "Ambiguous". We can't input "Ambig" because that's what will appear in the infobox as well.
:By the way, if a Sim has ambiguous gender, chances are they're glitchy and have ambiguous age as well, but not all of them are like this. See [[Melissa Sims]]. Did it go well? [[User:Nikel23|'''<span style="color:#007FFF; text-shadow: #ACE5EE 0 4px 4px;">Nikel</span>''']] [[User talk:Nikel23|<span style="color: #30D5C8 ; text-shadow: #00FFEF 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Talk''</sub></span>]] <sub>–</sub> [[The Sims Wiki:Featured Media/Voting|<span style="color:red ; text-shadow:#E97451 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Vote!''</sub></span>]] 03:38, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
::I made a minor change to {{t|Sim}} to automatically link ambiguous gender to the appropriate page section on [[Gender]]; I'm not sure where a link should be made in regards to ambiguous age - perhaps [[life state]]?
::One additional thing I've noticed which probably warrants some discussion is the use of gender pronouns (he/she, his/hers, him/her, etc) in the body of the article. The gender used in the text seems to match the gender that the Sim appears to be- do we want to keep this, or should we switch the pronouns to be gender neutral? -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<font color="navy">LostInRiverview</font>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] ~ [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]]</sup>''' 14:15, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
:::I think that we should leave he/she in body of the article. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Mate1234|Mate1234]] ([[User talk:Mate1234|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mate1234|contribs]]) 14:45, August 31, 2013 (UTC) - Please sign your comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></small>
::::Did you mean [[life stage]]? Personally, in that sense, I prefer if we use the pronoun of what Sim appears to be. Using he/she, him/her, and his/her all the time sounds confusing to me. So, Sims like Melissa Sims should use female pronouns. I know this sounds subjective unlike our decision for the infobox parameters, but that's my opinion. [[User:Nikel23|'''<span style="color:#007FFF; text-shadow: #ACE5EE 0 4px 4px;">Nikel</span>''']] [[User talk:Nikel23|<span style="color: #30D5C8 ; text-shadow: #00FFEF 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Talk''</sub></span>]] <sub>–</sub> [[The Sims Wiki:Featured Media/Voting|<span style="color:red ; text-shadow:#E97451 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Vote!''</sub></span>]] 16:03, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
:::::Yeah, I meant 'life stage', my bad. And I agree on the use of the pronoun that the Sim appears to be, since it's most likely to be the originally-intended gender. -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<font color="navy">LostInRiverview</font>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] ~ [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]]</sup>''' 16:16, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
::::::On a second thought, I'll strengthen my statement. I opt to use the pronoun of what Sim appears to be. We should caller her "she" if the Sim appears female even though the gender in-game is male, and vice versa.
::::::When a Sim has an ambiguous gender, it might be as a result of computer error, developer error, or glitch (changing the gender flag with an external program). It is the computer or the game itself that confuses the Sim's gender. A Sim appears as a female, but she behaves like a male -- that's because the game cannot recognize her actual gender, which is an error.
::::::However, we are not computer. We know if the Sim appears as female, but the gender flag is set as male, she is still a female. Just because someone changed the flag, doesn't mean we can instantly call her "him", or even confuse her as "he/she". Take an example of [[James Mole]] and [[Lucy Mole]]. James is normal, but Lucy is treated as a male. Normally, we'll think that a parent of a Sim is a father and a mother, not two fathers, unless the game or storyline states otherwise, so we should call Lucy "her", not "him". She obviously was meant to be a female, but somehow the gender was wrong. We know this and we can recognize this. There's no way the developer meant to create a male, but ended up making a female figure, right? [[User:Nikel23|'''<span style="color:#007FFF; text-shadow: #ACE5EE 0 4px 4px;">Nikel</span>''']] [[User talk:Nikel23|<span style="color: #30D5C8 ; text-shadow: #00FFEF 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Talk''</sub></span>]] <sub>–</sub> [[The Sims Wiki:Featured Media/Voting|<span style="color:red ; text-shadow:#E97451 0 4px 4px;"><sub>''Vote!''</sub></span>]] 04:53, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
'''Closing the thread''', as this seems well-resolved. -- '''[[User:LostInRiverview|<font color="navy">LostInRiverview</font>]]<sup> [[User_talk:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">talk</font>]] ~ [[User_blog:LostInRiverview|<font color="green">blog</font>]]</sup>''' 22:05, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
| |||