Forum:Chatbot request

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I came across an issue where a user was banned. When I asked for logs of the event, none could be provided. I just had two different parties giving different accounts. While I would never question or appeal the ban if the majority feels that is was justified, I do want a formal way of receiving the information to know the "up and up" on the Chat. This is why I formally propose we acquire a Chat bot from Sactage. The bot will log everything everyday without question and can be updated to for further use. Questions, comments? Ѧüя◎ґ (talk) 07:22, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

EDIT: Here is the prerequisite --> Chatbot Requests

Discussion

If logs are all we would want this for, I can host this myself via my server and personally, if we choose to go this route, I'd rather it be hosted by myself or somebody directly affiliated with TSW.

I do agree that a formal method of judging the fairness of a ban should be put into place. I too do have some personal concerns about the way some chat bans are handled but that's not important for now. I do however have some minor concerns that publicly logging chat may seem a bit Big Brother-ish but seeing as there is next to no other way of dealing with this, a log system seems like the only viable solution. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 11:02, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know. I can see the good points to having a Chatbot, but I can also see a couple of down points to having one. For example, some users knowing that there is a bot in Chat which logs all of the conversations that takes place in Chat may make these users feel timid and will not join chat, knowing that a bot will be logging their conversation, if they were to have one in Chat. However, I can also see a couple of good points of having a Chatbot. For example, the Chatbot would be great for reference in the case of administrators or Chat Mods under looking/overlooking certain conversations which would lead to a ban of a troubling user. Right now I'm feeling neutral towards the idea, maybe after some more thought I may be able to come to a conclusion. Beds ^{(parlare - da leggere)} 15:01, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Same as Beds, I am very neutral about this. For starters, it could help decide on what a fair ban is, and what isn't, but on the other hand, it can be viewed as intrusive, and, as Hana also previously stated, could potentially act as a deterrent, meaning that we could lose some regular users (and reading the chatbot requirements, at least eight active users, and if we lose active users... you get the gist, it'd be pointless maintaining a "ghost town") due to the lack of privacy the users have. Also, chat can be very glitchy, and there have been times where some users haven't seen others leave; the point is, this could potentially affect the bot's functionality. To reiterate, I just don't know about this one. AsherÉire 'Sup? 15:28, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm against adding a bot, all it sounds like is you're trying to undermind the chat mods and admins that are on, if 3 mods and 2 admins all agree that someone broke the rules, some self appointed person shouldn't be trying to underminding their decisions. Also, someone who isn't active on chat trying to decide what's best for the active users of chat is just... GAHSIcepick (talk) 18:03, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

It is worth noting that the IRC Channel has several users/bots that log conversations there, to the effect that essentially anything said in channel is recorded somewhere by someone for later review. To me, this logging is a useful tool in determining the circumstances of a disagreement or a problem on the IRC. I do not think having logging undermines the IRCOps' ability to moderate the channel in any way; in fact, I think having this information is an asset to those who work to ensure order in the channel and fair execution of the rules. As for the bot being a deterrent in the Chat; perhaps that is the whole idea. We should be trying to deter the negative incidents that sometimes occur on chat, and having someone keeping a watchful eye even if there are no mods present would do just that. -- LostInRiverview ^{talk ~ blog} 18:20, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Also, Icepick, we're not about to start limiting discussion only to those who are somehow deemed to be "active" on chat, just as you and other non-active-on-the-IRC people would not be prohibited from discussing changes to the IRC. IRC and Chat are both community features and belong to the whole community regardless of whether certain users choose to use them. -- LostInRiverview ^{talk ~ blog} 18:29, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Me not active on IRC is laughable at best, I'm on there a lot more than most. GAHSIcepick (talk) 18:32, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Be that as it may, my point is the same. We will not limit the discussion to chatters-only because that would be unfair to the whole community. -- LostInRiverview ^{talk ~ blog} 18:49, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Whatever, but as it deals with the chat community and after what was said on chat earlier, all a bot will do is hurt the chat community. GAHSIcepick (talk) 18:54, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me for jumping in, but has anyone here considered the feelings of the current admins/chat mods who are constantly on Chat? I mean, I am saying this on all of our behalfs because they would back me up on this as we have been discussing this for the past couple of hours. If you add a Chatbot into chat, you will make us feel useless as it is there to record conversations so you are all sure about users that have been banned. I find this really unfair and I feel that you don't trust us enough with our rights. There is no point to this bot. Beds ^{(parlare - da leggere)} 18:56, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

As Chat is becoming a more popular feature there are also more incidents on it. In my opinion, using the current system can be very biased for judging why to kick/ban someone. The use of logs is just for a reference, and I'm sure we can all guarantee that the logs will only be reviewed if we need to review them and not for no reason. If the reviewer stumbles upon any opinions that they dislike or disagree with, they will definitely ignore them as they're looking at one issue. The idea of implementing a logging system is to remove any bias, and this will be maintained if it is implemented.

However, many users have brought up hesitation to how Chat regulars will feel about this. I believe that the opinions of these users are valued, however the opinions of users who are more active on IRC are as well. Being more active on IRC than Chat, I can say that the logging feature has been a tremendous help and has not hurt activity at all. I joined the IRC back when it basically started, and it's come a long way partly due to features like logging. Though, I would like to see the response from more Chat users before completely locking in my decision. --Bleeh^{(talk!) (edits)} 18:57, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

OK, I understand what you're saying, but I'm hurt that Chat has been run like this for almost a year without a hitch, and now people are saying that things aren't good enough. I've been an admin since September, and I feel that this sudden change, which I interpret as a way of being told what I'm doing isn't good enough for someone else's standards, is quite hurtful. I also feel that these logs will simply make my role redundant since my judgement won't be viewed as reliable or important anymore... not only that, but it'll alienate the rest of the community, since this change is being implemented with so many active users around. AsherÉire 'Sup? 19:05, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, the idea of implementing logs isn't that the current chat mods aren't good enough. Nobody's perfect, though. Everyone forgets specific things that happened and their judgement can be clouded. Logs would just provide a factual recount of what's happened and would only made the jobs of chat mods to be easier.

As well, Chat has been running well and is still running well. However, it's growing. The growth is necessitating additional resources to make it run as smoothly and be as enjoyable as possible. For example, when I joined the IRC it was just 3 users. After awhile, the activity grew and so did the trolls and stuff. We needed additional resources to have it run as smoothly as it did at the beginning. If something isn't continually maintained, it'll begin to break. I'm not saying that it will happen with Chat, as the mods we have work extremely well, but I just believe that implementing logs will only help. --Bleeh^{(talk!) (edits)} 19:17, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I'm going to speak up again. Firstly, I hesitate to say this but I think several people here are taking an emotional response to this proposal and channeling it into some sort of reason for opposing the suggestion without seriously evaluating it. The idea that we'd have a bot which would log conversation is somehow construed to mean that everyone on chat loses their privacy or that the chatmods and admins are no longer useful or trusted. None of this is true.

Firstly, The idea of privacy on chat is a plain and simple myth. Anyone on the chat can see what anyone says in public chat, and anyone using the chat should fully understand and accept this. There are no secrets, and there is no privacy. Frankly, anyone using any sort of online communication should accept this as standard practice.

The concept that the bot indicates a lack of trust in the Chat Mods is simply untrue. I can say from experience as an administrator that there are often times when I question my own judgment in a matter, and will seek out other opinions; the same should be true of chat mods when they kick or ban a user. Having logging enabled would allow just that, by showing another mod or admin the context of the conversation that led to a kick or ban, in order to reaffirm a mod's decision or guide them into one. From a moderating perspective, the logs would be a tremendous benefit for mods and admins wishing to back up their justification for taking an action against a user. This has nothing to do with not trusting our chat moderators; it has everything to do with giving them the tools to better perform their jobs.

-- LostInRiverview ^{talk ~ blog} 19:14, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Closed

Because this thread is clearly the scapegoat of personal attacks and borderline wiki-warfare, I'm closing it pre-emptively. Because of the nature of how this thread turned out, no action will be taken. I'm very disappointed that an act of good faith has gone this far, both on-wiki and on-chat and I don't want any more commentary on this issue and I would like for everybody to stop arguing about this. To those who did act in good faith 100% of the time, you know who you are and this rant isn't directed at you. If somebody wants to start another thread regarding this, they are free to do so. Any more personal attacks or arguing about this will result in disciplinary action taken against any users involved. No exceptions. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 19:50, August 3, 2013 (UTC)