The Sims Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive 19

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Abuse Filter

I wasn't sure whether to put this here, in a forum post or on the Admin Portal talk page but I felt the community deserves a say in this too. In the wake of several recent spam/vandalism attacks, I contacted Wikia asking that provided we gained consensus, we could be allowed to have the Abuse Filter activated here. It is a MediaWiki extension and a tool which can prove valuable if configured correctly. I received a reply stating that as long as we have users here with experience with the tool (I myself have a little bit of experience in addition to a few IRC users I know), we can have it enabled.

The tool can be used to block suspicious edits, which we can limit by a specific usergroup if we wanted to, tag suspicious edits on Special:RecentChanges and in the page history, such as section blanking, without actually stopping them, block/warn a user who triggers a specific filter based on how we set it, throttle certain types of edits, for example, if someone went to say blank a page, they would be stopped the first time around and they would trigger a term listed in Special:AbuseLog (which doesn't exist here yet as we don't have the AbuseFilter) and Administrators can check this to see if the user in question has triggered the filter and so forth. How it works depends on how we choose to configure it.

For us we could say, program it to combat gibberish page names/edit summaries (which one particular spammer has used frequently) and many more things - it is a powerful tool. This and this show what the AbuseFilter has been programmed to do on another wikis and I feel it could be good for us too and is better than locking down a whole wiki just because of one spammer. I realise most of our administrators may be new to this tool and over time, we'll become more acustomed with it. If anyone needs help with the tool, they can always ask around on Wikia.

Given how powerful this tool is, I would like to know if the community would be comfortable having this tool enabled via a community discussion. I think that it would be very beneficial and I don't see any major downsides to this. I'll reply to an email I received from Wikia depending on how the consensus went down. What do you guys think? Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 10:21, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

As long as the Abuse Filter is not abused, I believe it can prove valuable in decreasing vandalism, but when it comes to its use, we should not overreact. By this I mean it should be used only when dealing with major spammers and vandals rather than a single vandal who creates a few spam pages. In that case, good old revert-block-ignore can prove more useful and easy. But anyway, I support. 10:36, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

FWIW, we can actually configure it against everyday problems, such as blanking a whole page, meaning if someone tries it - it won't be allowed. I'll also suggest that if the feature is enabled, we don't set it to block users for every little thing - there's no point setting it to ban someone who tries to do something when they couldn't actually do it. It's all very customisable - it's best to wait until we actually get it (if we get it) before pre-emptively deciding on what extent we'll use it. Though I do agree it's not worth adding everything to the filter just because some forms of vandalism/spam vary; AbuseFilter performs best with the common things. Also I don't think it can really be abused as only administrators will be able to control it. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 10:47, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

This would definitely be a better alternative than locking down the whole wiki. I support this as well. Ѧüя◎ґ 18:31, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Per Auror. DanPin • talk • contribs18:41, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Fine by me. I might see if I can set it up on my test wiki if someone needs to test using it or something. ―ฬђ ^talk 22:54, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Support. Dharden (talk) 04:35, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Btw WH, you won't be able to use it on your test wiki as Wikia need to enable the extension. There is however a testing function inside the filter which will allow you to test a specific filter without disrupting anything else on the wiki. Seeing as the support has been overwhelmingly positive, I've asked Wikia to enable the extension so we should get it at some point today. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 06:31, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Hm, could have sworn I'd just be able to send a Special:Contact in to get it :/ Anyhoo, I'm glad we're getting it and I'll try doing a little research on it later. ―ฬђ ^talk 06:36, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

The AbuseFilter is now enabled and can be controlled via Special:AbuseFilter. I've added a couple of general countervandalism filters and one experimental anti-Meep sheep filter. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 16:52, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I didn't quite catch in the middle of this discussion, but what will this filter do if someone manages to abuse, like spamming? Is the edit just reverted somehow or it just disallows suspicious edits? Or maybe I should try it to understand? Nikel _Talk 14:50, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I've "tried" it and hoped that other vandals will only blank the pages, because I can't. Seeing from the abuse filter log, does "Disallow" action mean a temporary block or something? Nikel _Talk 14:58, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

From what I know, it disallows the edit as is if the page was protected. I think it can also be configured to warn or block the editor who attempted it as well. 15:00, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Andronikos is right, it will stop the edit from being published. "Warn" doesn't give an explicit talk page warning to the user but they'll be warned when they hit publish and if they really want to make the edit then they have to hit publish again. "Tag" will just tag the edit when viewed in the page history, the user's contributions or Special:RecentChanges. "Throttle" will pretty much continuously stop the edit from being published a few times, it's mainly used as a deterrent to put the user off of trying. "Block" is pretty self-explanatory and "block /16" blocks the user's IP range. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 15:15, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Top 10 lists

I've noticed that the Top 10 lists feature has been largely unused for quite some time. At an attempt of trying to make this place more interesting, I feel that we could try and shape the feature around our community a little bit more. If all else fails then we may as well deactivate it as there's no point housing a feature that's just going to be abandoned.

I'm open to ideas of what to do with the feature, how we do it and how to make the feature seem more attractive to users in the hope that they would embrace it. If we want to try and attract more users here then realistically we have to make do with what Wikia provides for us and the Top 10 lists can engage the community but when left unused, the feature is pretty worthless.

Ideas? Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 11:36, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

We could make lists of desired features in the games, a monthly list (like the Monthly Poll) or something alike. DanPin • talk • contribs 11:39, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

I simply choose to disable it. I never really see the point of interest of it. Nikel _{Talk – Vote for Featured Media!} 11:44, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, I personally agree with Nikel. I only created this based on IRC opposition to disabling it. Plus desired lists have been done before, both as a Top 10 feature and a poll. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 17:35, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

I believe monthly poles can work much better than Top 10 lists. Firstly, the polls can easily be used embedded in both the main page and the newsletter, while Top 10 lists have a page on their own. Secondly, has anyone here tried renaming a Top 10 list without breaking it? Thirdly, polls show more statistics than Top 10 lists. So I believe they should ultimately be disabled, since they remain unused and when used, they only cause trouble and disorder. 08:53, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Disable them per the above. ―ฬђ ^talk 01:57, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Given that 4/5 users have said we should disable it, I've gone ahead and made the changes. If anyone decides we should reactivate it later on, feel free to bring it up. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 02:02, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Revisited: Eliminating Player Stories

Last year, a proposal was put forward to eliminate player stories from the wiki however no action was taken due to hesitation from users, lack of consensus and the discussion eventually drying up.

Since the abuse filter has been enabled, I've noticed that the filter designed to disallow edits containing profanity has picked up an awful lot of what would seem like false positives, particularly on Player Stories pages. This is because the content that was added before we even had the filter enabled contained profanity and/or pejorative terms which is literally preventing anyone else from adding anything to those pages unless the offending terms are removed; that exact filter actually works effectively on every other part of the wiki. I've removed some terms from a couple of stories pages but I'm certain they aren't the only stories pages that contain profanity and even trying to moderate them is rather tedious and time consuming.

We may as well face facts:

1. The vast majority of player stories are of below average quality and are left unsigned.
2. Anonymous users can write to the Fanon namespace and create an account if they care enough about their fanon articles.
3. Moderating the subpages in general can be quite tedious and annoying.
4. Hardly any registered users actually actively contribute to these subpages and would much rather use the Fanon namespace as there is much more freedom.

I realise that last year's discussion on this didn't get very far but I now feel a lot less hesitant on eliminating player stories outright and I think it would be better for us if we did eliminate them as it would save administration headaches and such. What do you guys think? Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 15:43, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I think they should be eliminated because what you said is true - most Player Stories places currently look like dumps (formatting errors, awful grammar and such). Also, there is an example of an awesome Fanon based on a pre-made Sim. On the other hand, the theories shouldn't be deleted - instead, I think the current ones should be archived (or the ones with poor quality should be deleted) and we could keep a monthly weekend or whatnot (like the ones we now have for Fanons) to check their quality, since the number of theory pages is way smaller. DanPin • talk • contribs16:04, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I also think there's no way we could ever clean up everything that contains profanity. But, we can't compare fanons and player stories. Anons can freely (like, very freely) put their stories in the player stories, but fanons have certain standards of the stories; not to mention if they only write 1-2 sentences. If they only stop by to tell a bit of their stories on fanons, then the fanons themselves might be the subject of deletion eventually. Which means more work to maintain the fanon namespace. Besides, stories for premade Sims are more practical if written in player stories instead of creating new fanons. In short, player stories are a good editing sandbox for the anons and users, and they're different from fanons. Player stories are quite popular to anons, and recently more player stories are submitted by many people.

Those are the points of view from the anons themselves, and different problems for us. The filter might be quite useful for abusive editing, but I simply disagree if fanon will take over the player stories, unless there's no other methods. Nikel _Talk 16:09, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I've just searched the wiki for pages with profanity, narrowed down to two words in particular. Though Wikia's search engine cache's results (like any search engine), I've noticed it has appeared in the fanon namespace too, again before the AbuseFilter was enabled, which already in itself breaks the policy.

As for Nikel's points, they're understandable from an anon's point of view. The only other way I can see this problem being resolved is for us to simply remove any story containing profanity, which would probably be more tedious than it's worth as it would probably happen all over again. So aside from my initial proposal, I'm out of ideas. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 16:21, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I made the previous proposal, so it would be easy for me to stand up and redouble my support for this idea. But the things said in the previous discussion and here must make me pause and reconsider the effect of what we're proposing. I encourage thoughtful consideration and discussion of all possible courses of action before we proceed to a consent period.

What I'm thinking at this present moment is whether Player Stories do serve a purpose. I stand by my previous statement - that most player stories are poorly-written and are not interesting to read. But, could player stories perhaps serve as a 'relief valve' of sorts? In this I mean, I think player stories might be useful to keep around if keeping them limits the amount of garbage that ends up in the Fanon NS, since we'll have to delete any poorly-written stories that don't meet Fanon criteria.

At the same time, the sheer volume of the stories and the rate at which new ones are added (as Nikel stated, they are still popular with anon users) makes it prohibitively difficult to moderate them, so profanity and inappropriate content is bound to slip through un-noticed by the admins.

At the present time, I am taking a neutral stance to this idea. I'll keep watching the discussion and the pros and cons, and may alter my stance accordingly. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 17:44, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly they should be eliminated unless the user's signature isn't located anywhere. Also there are some amounts of profanity located on these player stories which no one seems to find. But on the other hand, these are the player's stories and even though some do not meet the standards it doesn't mean we should just take them out. It's the player's story and should remain there to see unless it is located in the Fanon NS then the story should be gone. If this site was to eliminate such a small detailed wording on the player's stories, then we'll probably see some anger since it would mean the player would might think we are being jerks ya' know? And we don't want to see an uproar since the player would might come back to update it. Starmoonie(Talk Here) 19:14, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should nuke the whole player stories thing from orbit. Here's my reasoning:

1. As said above, it's virtually impossible to moderate them.
2. They make the site look untidy as most of them are poorly written.
3. If they want to write about what they did, they can just make an account and create a fanon article which we can moderate easier.

I'm sure someone is going to reply to this with the whole "but they put work into their stories and want them here forever herp derp" thing. But to be honest, I doubt anyone will care tbh. Most people have likely forgotten about their stories, and if they care so much they can ask an admin to get the story for them. So, yeah, delete 'em. ―ฬђ ^talk 00:45, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

Another thought I had earlier after my post was to have a sort of "Best of..." stories selection for some of our more "popular" Sims, where the most well-written player stories get saved in some sort of archive while the rest get tossed. That way, those stories that really are good quality are saved for others to read, and those that are junk or break the rules get deleted. However, unless we had a large community movement to do this and it was organized correctly, I think this idea would be too difficult to put into practice.

Upon consideration of all the points I've found on this, I'm going to switch to Support for deletion, on the condition that a notice is put up prior to deletion allowing users to 'reclaim' their stories before final deletion. As well, if the idea I gave above actually seemed like a good and practical idea to someone here, we could try to implement that prior to final deletion too. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 02:12, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't think anything better than what LiR proposed. Player stories are untidy, most of them are low quality and boring, and also 1/3 of a wiki is the maximum amount of stubs it should have, as it was in the previous discussion, and should we count the player stories, we are well beyond that. By all means, delete them. 08:16, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

I can say that the player stories aren't better than junk. I have a safer approach before deleting it. We can just edit the templates to remove the player stories links from the infoboxes. That way, we can know whether the communities realize about this change (if we really care about their stories), and avoid if there's any protests going for this change. IMO, users who aren't used to manually typing the link in the URL or the search box are likely to be directed to the Player Stories from the links. If there's no major opposition from them about this, then the deletion is now safe.

Unless some users can actually access it by using search box/URL/etc. and there are still Player Stories activities going, then this suggestion is just void and I suppose we could delete it anyway. Nikel _Talk 09:39, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

As an alternative to deletion, I think Nikel's idea is pretty good and pretty easy to do. That way noone loses anything assuming they actually care about their stories and those who don't know how to access the pages by editing the URL won't be able to add new stories.

I can understand LiR's suggestion though I think an issue is that most stories have no way to identify who wrote them meaning that if the whole idea is to showcase an individual's story then it's pointless if we don't know who it is. Plus it seems like administrators will spend so much time looking for above average stories only to find so little, making it very time consuming and frankly not worth it, hence why I'm dismissing this idea.

Also despite the fact that I'm rather pessimistic about that many people who wrote a story even caring enough to recover it, we would give quite a bit of notice before actually deleting anything. 1 month sounds fair. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 11:00, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

As I said, the idea didn't seem very practical, even to me. I felt the need to mention it on the off chance that someone besides me might think of a way to make it work. Honestly I don't think many people will choose to save their stories, but I still think that option should be extended before they're all deleted; a month sounds like a good length of time.

As for Nikel's idea... I'm a bit concerned that if we just remove the links and don't make clear the fact that we've done so, people who know that the player stories exist and who want to contribute to them might become upset, as they would perceive that the player stories had been deleted. If we actually were deleting the pages, there would likely be plenty of notice of the pending deletion so it wouldn't be a big surprise to anyone that it was happening. If the idea of Nikel's proposal is to remove the links and see how many people notice/care, then I suppose any sort of reaction is the sort of reaction we're looking to observe. If that's the case, then my concerns may not be completely relevant. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 11:14, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

The practice of eliminating the Player Stories and removing the link are quite similar. We can simply notify them that we're going to delete the Player Stories, even though the real fact is that we only removed the link, while the stories are intact. If we later change our mind, retrieving the link back is much easier than having to restore all deleted subpages. If by chance anyone finds out that the player stories aren't yet deleted, we can tell them that the deletion is still in progress. Nikel _Talk 11:35, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

I have some pretty good examples of premade Sims who are turned into fanons by Watch Yo Face. Most of them are so bad that some people consider her as a plagiarist. These are better in Player Stories or not at all. But I'll just prefer "not at all". Nikel _Talk 03:04, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Consensus

I really don't want this discussion to go the way the one last year did, so I'm just going to open this up for a vote and go from there.

1. Eliminate all player stories
2. Keep player stories
3. Archive the quality stories into a "best of" archive as suggested by LiR
4. Remove the links to the player stories from the pages

Voting has ended.

---

I'd say remove the links, and then eliminate the player stories gradually. I'm anticipating other people's reaction, because eliminating them is not that simple. At least to me. Nikel _{Talk – Vote for Featured Media!} 07:41, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

---

This seems like a quality control issue for sure. After reading this discussion I support Nikel's idea of removing the links from the templates and then, assuming there is not a massive negative outcry, the player stories pages should start being eliminated or archived depending on how much content it has. I don't think anybody is going to cry over the deletion of Birth Queen (Pollination Technician 9's paternal grandmother)/Player stories, but pages like Mary-Sue Pleasant/Player stories‎ should be at least partially archived IMO. Elassint 08:54, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

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I'd say we should remove links to the stories as suggested by Nikel. My idea would be too impractical to implement, otherwise I'd support it. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 11:02, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

---

Based upon restarting the discussion, I feel it will be best to eliminate all player stories. It is indeed easier said than done and I am wondering if there's an easier way of nuking the subspace but regardless, this is the easiest option. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 17:02, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

---

I think we should remove the links, then eliminate the player stories. If we decide to eliminate player stories, the links would have to be removed anyway, and removing the links should give us time to remove the player stories. As for the stories, there's not much organization; most are unsigned, and a story might have been added to the top or bottom of the page. Dharden (talk) 19:58, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

---

I think we should delete all the player stories pages. Also, for those who are wondering how this will be done, I'll do a bot run through the entire player stories namespace and delete everything in it, if we do decide to delete them, that is. ―ฬђ ^talk 04:28, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

---

I believe that we should keep all player stories. It's the best option for if people want to write about pre-made Sims in their game, opposed to having a ton of fanon namespace pages dedicated to that Sim. It's also one of the things that attracts people to edit the wiki; so that they can write about something short and funny that happened to a Sim in their game. It's a simpler alternative to making a whole page for that Sim and worrying about templates, photos, and if your page is of good enough quality. --Bleeh^{(talk) (blog)} 17:53, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

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I believe the best option is to keep all player stories, because writing a fanon article is not that simple, and, as Bleeh stated, it's better for writing stories about pre-made Sims. --RoseGui (talk here) 14:44, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

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I agree with both Bleeh and RoseGui, imagine how much fanon would come in if we eliminate the player stories if they were just about canon Sims. We should keep all player stories because it gives editors something fun to do, a little story about how they play a certain family wouldn't hurt and besides not everyone can write a good fanon and keep up with the standards so it's just best to keep them. --Starmoonie(Talk Here) 15:07, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

---

The results are:

• 4 in favor of removing the links
  • 3 of those favored eventual removal of Player Stories
• 2 in favor of removing Player Stories outright
• 3 in favor of keeping Player Stories

Therefore, the links to Player Stories will be removed. Dharden (talk) 13:25, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

---

Let's face it. The consensus is over and it's 6 against 3 votes. I'm still hesitant about this. Are we going to eliminate it at all costs? Nikel _{Talk – Vote for Featured Media!} 01:58, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

As I'm reading it, it's currently 4 in favor of removing the links, with 3 of those favoring eventual removal; 2 in favor of outright removal; and 3 in favor of keeping. I'd say to wait for the timer to run out, and if that holds up, remove the links and wait for the reaction, if there is one. Dharden (talk) 02:37, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, geez. I made a blog a little too soon before anyone else finds out the conclusion. :s I hope it's okay because I made a lot of mistakes irl yesterday. Hopefully I made it right. Nikel _{Talk – Vote for Featured Media!} 02:44, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Should be OK, just edit it to say "remove the links to the Player Stories", since it looks like that's what the decision will be. Dharden (talk) 02:57, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like the blog is okay then. I'd rather keep it that way, because I don't want everyone openly knows that we're currently planning on removing the links, because they might find out they can bypass it by typing on URL or the search box. Better if they assume it's removed. Nikel _{Talk – Vote for Featured Media!} 03:03, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Point taken. Dharden (talk) 03:13, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Have we reached a consensus? I realized player stories links have been removed. --RoseGui (talk here) 12:05, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Out of the 9 users who voted, 3 of those said to keep them altogether while 4 said remove the links, which was the outcome. 3 of the users who said to remove the links support the eventual elimination of player stories and I suppose we can count the 2 users who said to remove them outright, meaning that to an extent, 5 users would support completely wiping out player stories but I say based upon the links being removed, we should wait a little while before giving the 1 month notice prior to deletion. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 10:16, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

ok then,but you should keep some stories that featured.

09:51, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Deleting the Pages

Alright, there have been some questions about exactly what was decided in the consensus above. Reading through the information in much the same way that GG did, a majority of those voting (5 of 9) supported either the immediate or eventual deletion of the pages. But, 5 of 9 is hardly a resounding majority, especially when taking into account reaction on this blog, so it seems as if there are some residual issues to be decided.

There are many questions before us now about how we proceed with deletion (or not deleting), including whether we delete all the pages and all the content, or save certain pages or stories, whether we delete it all at once or wait a while, etc. This is not a clear-cut issue by any means, and a vote or consensus period frankly won't solve this issue, but community discussion also tends to fizzle out, I've noticed. So I think, seeing as a majority supported deletion, we should go with the decision to delete all player stories after a waiting period - let's say 3 weeks from right now. I'd say that if the community can come up with a better idea or some alternative and more acceptable solution by then, that the deletion would be canceled/postponed and the alternative solution would be implemented instead. But if community discussion falters, then we have a definite idea of what will be happening, rather than letting the discussion die and letting this issue once again go unresolved.

There are 22:30:00 July 23, 2012 UTC until the three week waiting period elapses. Let's start discussing. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 22:32, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Right now (or until now), I have no idea to resolve any of those issues. Remember that this will be a big change for this wiki once we get through this, and I still support the idea of deletion. Also, I have the feeling that some users began realizing that the player stories are still there. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 09:26, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

It seems that some people have realized that they can still access the Player Stories. Should we protect all Player Stories pages first or it's not necessary? Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 10:05, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Not really necessary since it would do nothing but overload the servers, since we'll either have to unprotect them or delete them anyway in the end. ―ฬђ ^talk 10:09, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Another option would be to blank them, either with or without archiving them first. Dharden (talk) 12:28, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

People now find out how to access the player stories. I hope you all can make up your decisions. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 05:22, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

I think you should delete them. I like writing player stories myself, and since you've removed the links it's become harder for me to access them. Either delete them or keep them but I'd delete them. Even though I like writing them, delete them because there is a lot of inappropriate words/stories. Bakerychaz (talk page · blog) 12:57, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion

Based on everything above, it seems that most users are for the removal of the Player Stories outright and the three week period is up. I've created a news blog, put a notice on the Main Page and in the Community Corner regarding this. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 16:56, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Spotlight

Like last year, and the year before, I think we should request a Spotlight, which would appear at the bottom of the screen under the "Around Wikia's Network" section with an image from our wiki with a link too, which promotes TSW across a wide range of wikis on Wikia's network. It worked well for last year's Q4 EP (The Sims 3: Pets) and given the fan response to The Sims 3: Supernatural, I think it would be another good opportunity for us to try and attract some new users. The EP is released September 4th in the US.

I do realise I've put this forward pretty early and it's better to request it a few weeks before the release of the EP; I'm just proposing this locally now just to see how the community feels about it. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 18:18, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think getting a spotlight would be good for promoting the wiki. Additionally, it might allow us to clean up any aspects of the Wiki we see as not being completely up-to-scratch - I can't think of anything, but it's always good to look towards self-improvement, and the focus we'd receive from a spotlight would give us that focus. I am wholly in support of a spotlight. - LiR ^{speak ~ read} 18:30, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

I support it, per the above. ―ฬђ ^talk 22:23, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really have any good points to say, so I just support it. Nikel _{Talk – Vote for Featured Media!} 06:45, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Seeing no opposition, I've put in the request. Check back here for updates on the request. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 19:55, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

The request still has not been considered. I'll keep an eye on the page and update you all as soon as they respond. - LiR ^{speak ~ read} 22:20, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, they apparently check the page once a week though seeing as the last "upcoming" spotlight was listed for the 3rd of July, which was 2 days ago, it seems they've become a bit unorganised with this. It wouldn't surprise me if we had to put in a second request nearer to the time, like last year, but this is just for the record. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 22:23, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

I've received the following message:

Hi. The Sims Wiki is in good shape (you do have a few Special:UncategorizedPages). Please remind me on my talk page in a couple of weeks (roughly two weeks before you want the spotlight to be up) and I will add it to the approved spotlight list. -- Wendy (talk)<staff /> 02:58, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

So it looks like we're all good. Now let's figure out the exact date that we want this to start. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 03:21, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

I just want to know, when will the spotlight highlight our wiki? And if possible, should we only highlight the release of Supernatural or mention the upcoming Seasons as well? Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 08:39, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

Changes to Featured Article voting

As you may have noticed, we're having a hard time getting people to vote for Featured Articles for the wiki. We've reached the point where the most recent Featured Article (Michael Bachelor) was tied with another nominee - they both had one vote apiece. If something isn't done to promote FA voting, we may soon be in a situation where no good articles are nominated for featuring.

I have two different ideas to fix this. One would be to reform the system we have now by making a few changes, such as:

• Removing administrator review before voting begins on nominated articles.
• Removing negative votes and postponement for problem articles.
• Removing (or reducing) the need of users voting to justify their votes (the nominee would still need to provide this justification)

In this approach, the administrators would still have the ability to reject articles that are of poor quality, even if receiving enough votes to become featured.

My other idea would be to throw out the current method of Featured Article selection, in exchange for a "Queue" form of featured article selection. In this system, instead of choosing the article with the most votes every 2 weeks when the feature changes, we would set a threshold for nominated articles to pass. Once that threshold was passed and the article was quality-checked, the article would be put into a queue to await being featured. This method could help us avoid ties in voting, but has a couple downsides as well. What threshold would we set? How could we ensure that the articles remained in good condition from nomination up to featuring?

I'd appreciate feedback on either system, or if you have any ideas of your own as well. I'd like to reiterate, however, that we should try to reach a solution soon. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 06:21, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

For the first idea, doing the change might lead to more ineligible articles to become featured, just because it's a hot topic these days, such as Supernatural, Fairy, and eventually Moonlight Falls, which was the first problem why the system was changed like the current.

For the second, I don't really know... I'll just see what others think first. I hope there's a way so the featured article doesn't depend only on the votes. Nikel _{Talk – Vote for Featured Media!} 06:51, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

As things stand, Featured Content in general is lacking. I've linked to the appropriate pages in the IRC Channel topic just to try and grab people's attention but it's almost gotten to the point where noone cares. I've noticed another wiki is having problems getting users to vote on their Featured Article system and they have a larger active userbase than we do. Frankly I think the problem could be down to lack of enthusiasm but I do think we should at least try to do something about it.

Onto the matter at hand, I don't think scrapping administrator review for articles will work mainly based upon what Nikel said. I also don't think having a problem article rejected despite having enough votes is a good idea because it can be seen as acting against consensus despite being done with good intent and an administrator can pretty much reject an article for the reason, "I don't like it".

As for the second idea, I think it could work but then it not only creates more scenarios for the administration team to deal with but it also seems to cut off the community from having any major say in what article should be featured. I'm slightly hesitant to consider this idea but I may change my mind if someone else replies with what comes across to me as a compelling argument.

Based on what I said above, I'd rather keep everything the same but I do think we should try to find an effective way of encouraging users to get involved with Featured Content, like a "Nomination Drive" event where we publicise Featured Content and encourage users to vote or something along those lines. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 10:16, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

While I realize the problem of low participation extends to all featured content, I'd like to keep this discussion reined into Featured Articles exclusively, since the main point that I'm bringing up is a change to the rules for nominating Featured Articles - rules which differ greatly from the rules for selecting other featured content.

It is important that we be able to control the quality of the nominated articles, but having all nominated articles require administrator approval, frankly, was a bad idea on my part and one that I regret introducing. Each administrator looks at nominated articles differently, and each has different standards than others. Where someone might claim that an administrator defies consensus by blocking an article that has received the most votes, I'd say that you might run into even greater problems if it looks like an administrator is unfairly critiquing the articles that are nominated in the first place. If an administrator were to block an article that receives the votes to be featured, that administrator would have to do that for a very good reason in order to justify the action; blocking the nominee from even being voted on requires far less justification and therefore the threshold for quality can actually be higher. And while I might think this was a good idea if we were being flooded with bad nominations, we're not and I don't see any point in the near future where we will be. So if an administrator is going to block a nominated article that has received votes, they had better have a pretty good reason for doing so. I think this fact in itself is a sufficient deterrent from administrator abuse. In any case, having each article require administrator approval means more hoops to jump through for the users and the admins that check the nominations, and just lends itself to unfair rejection of nominated articles because of personal differences between administrator standards.

Having a queue system still allows community input into the articles selected, since those articles are still voted on by the wiki community at large. In this scenario, the only administrator input necessary (aside from keeping the voting page tidy, which is a minor upkeep job no matter how you choose to run the system) is in, after the votes are in, checking the quality of an article, then checking it again before it becomes featured to make sure it hasn't decreased markedly in quality. If you fear a 'rogue admin' denying certain articles, we could easily put in a system where multiple admins would be required to check an article before it's denied, but as I stated above I don't think that's going to happen unless the administrator has a really profound reason to deny the article.

My whole reason for beginning this discussion is to see if we can make the process run more smoothly, while simultaneously making the process easier for users to understand. Making a change to the system would be done with the intent of making it easier for users to understand the process and to participate, and easier for the administrators to manage versus the current system that is quite management-heavy. We can modify the system we use without compromising the quality of articles that we feature. If we do that we will see an increase in participation simply because there won't be a ton of rules in place mucking the whole process up and scaring users away from getting involved in the process. I think keeping the system in place as it is with no changes would be a critical mistake, as these problems will simply persist without some action. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 13:30, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we could advertise it more? A reminder on the main page or somewhere else to vote for the Featured Article could help, and also something to make people want to write good quality articles to get featured. We could add userboxes saying something like "This user has written a featured article!" or have awards for the makers of them. Also, if a new game or anticipated feature has been announced/released then we could automatically make its page (or something related to it, like werewolves for Supernatural) the featured article and use other nominated ones when nothing's announced or released. --Bleeh^{(talk) (blog)} 18:01, June 19, 2012 (UTC)

I support Bleeh's suggestion. Promoting it more is a good way of encouraging people to get involved and giving recognition to the author of a featured article is obviously a good thing and can in fact lead to users putting in more effort with articles in an attempt to have them featured; I don't think anything can go wrong with this suggestion. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 14:06, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

I wonder, how exactly do you plan on advertising something that's already on the main page? I only say this because, while advertising it certainly does no harm, I think that some people are using this advertising idea to avoid making substantive changes. I for one really doubt that lack of advertisement is the problem, but I'd love to be proven wrong. If I'm not proven wrong, you can expect this issue to return, and I will be more insistent on real changes. So for now, I'll go along with maintaining the rules as they are in exchange for better advertising... that is, of course, if anyone can determine a way to advertise something that's already just about as visible as we can make it. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 18:45, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

I meant by putting it in a more obvious page, like maybe the slideshow for the last week or so of the month. I also didn't mean that we should change the current rules for quality, I just meant that by giving recognition to the author, users would be more focused on making good quality articles to win, and not just making random articles since we would still have the admin approval system still in place.

As for making the pages of anticipated EPs, features or whatever the featured articles, I know that that goes against the rules a bit. However, many of the pages related to new games or features are actually very well made, since people are so interested in them. There's usually plenty of references and information that's frequently updated, just look at Supernatural or even Fairy (although it has less information). --Bleeh^{(talk) (blog)} 20:38, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it's a general practice (though not universally followed, it has been done before) to have a new expansion pack/game serve as the featured article at or around the time it is released. Also, since an article has multiple authors, how would you recognize them, who would do the recognizing, and who would/wouldn't be eligible for that recognition? -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 21:43, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking that just the creator could be given the award. We could have other awards for people that have contributed to the article as well I guess, that wouldn't be presented to them but if they want to use them they would be allowed. Also, even if the original author didn't make a very good page and getting the award doesn't seem fair, I think that it could inspire them to make better quality pages. --Bleeh^{(talk) (blog)} 22:15, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Citation needed template

I guess this is my first and only (if so) proposal in TSW. I suggest having a "Citation needed" template, just in case of something we need to clarify. Now with more non-registered contributors coming to help, and at some cases, we may spot something that we think may not happen in the game.

So how is it useful:

• It helps to clarify the piece of information
• It gives us the opportunity to try first to see whether the info is true
• It tells the contributor who added the piece to find the place where he gets it

Right now, there will be more rumour posts coming, so this template can be useful.

So anyone willing to vote for this? I'm okay if this is not needed, but you may also give some good reasons for this if so. Thanks!

TWikia _Talkie

14:40, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, excuse me? You mean templates like {{Fact}}, {{Clarify}}, and {{Confirm}}? If so, we already have them in this wiki, in case you didn't know. Nikel _{Talk – Vote for Featured Media!} 15:36, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

{{Fact}} already inserts ^{[citation needed]} . Dharden (talk) 16:33, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Given that these templates already exist, we may as well mark this discussion as over. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 16:45, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Except I'd like to add, to ThomasWikia or anyone else, now that you know those templates exist, I'd suggest using them if you see something that needs to be tagged. We often have statements that slip by because we don't tag them as needing confirmation, when we should be all about proving what we say. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 18:36, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't notice it. But I don't see this template in these articles. Well, case close then.

TWikia _Talkie

07:32, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Improving our Facebook Page

For those of you who are uninformed, The Sims Wiki has a Facebook page. I set the page up initially, and since then we've had three other admins/'crats (Nikel23, Wiryawan310 and DanPin) talk to me to obtain adminship of the page. The four of us have improved upon the initial creation and have begun to engage the growing number of followers we have. But I've noticed that, even with four administrators, the page isn't getting updated frequently. The main problem is that I, and I assume the other admins as well, just don't know what to put on the page. So I'm turning here for some advice.

What sort of community outreach do you think we should put on the Facebook page? For point of comparison, our old FB page used to host photo caption contests, "guess this Sim" and other photo-related contests, as well as 'ask the followers' questions and other interactions with the page like-ers. What sort of features would you want to see us introduce to the new page?

Additionally, I'd like to make yet another plea to our current admins/crats... If you use Facebook, please get in contact with me (via my talk page, or sending a message to the page on FB) so that I can make you an admin of the page. Any user who is an admin or bureaucrat here will automatically be made an admin of the page as long as they contact me (or one of the other admins I've listed above, whom also have the same powers to add new admins).

So, what do you all think? -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 03:31, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Due to my internet, I can barely get a good access to the facebook page. Usually only some of the part are loaded, and the rest is blank. It makes me difficult to make some changes or even useful enough on FB, though I still can view it once a while. I do like the idea of making small contests or quizzes in the page. That would be quite interesting. Also, we can share some updates from this wiki to the facebook page. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 10:06, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Tutorials

As of late, I've started to pay some attention to the tutorial namespace, and I've started to notice how badly managed it is in terms of pages with bad layout, poor grammar, etc. I'm actually starting to wonder if we really need the tutorial namespace myself. So, I've came up with some ideas which we could use to help improve the namespace:

1. Try and moderate it better.
2. Promote the namespace so that it will get more contributors.
3. Delete the namespace.

Personally I am inclined to delete the namespace since it has very little content which is of an acceptable quality, and there is a considerable amount of pages in it which are more or less just common sense. It has been around for more than a year (around 18 months iirc) and I myself don't think its good the way it is as it brings down the overall standard of the wiki.

tl;dr we need to try and fix up the tutorial namespace somehow. I'm not saying we should delete it here and now, I just want to know how the community feels about it in its present state. What do you guys think? ―ฬђ ^talk 01:47, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The tutorial namespace never really took off when we introduced it, and I'm not sure why that is. I'd rather we try to fix it than delete it, though. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 14:34, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's a good idea to keep the more detailed "how to" articles in their own namespace. Also, we shouldn't assume that something that may seem like "just common sense" to most contributors, or even most players, will be "just common sense" to all players. After all, the meaning of "press any key" should be "just common sense", but some people still wondered where the "any" key was. That said, quality control in the Tutorial namespace ... could be better. Dharden (talk) 16:05, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

We may as well go for the first two options as opposed to wiping out the entire namespace. Personally I think it mainly comes down to us having a lack of users with enough technical knowledge in order to write a seemingly acceptable form of tutorial...or may have no idea that we even have a tutorial namespace because we've literally never promoted it. Promotion can go either way but it's definitely worth a try. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 18:00, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Agree completely with Georgie. I for one don't know much about the technical aspects of the game, but when the namespace was created I had hoped that those users who did have that knowledge would step in and help us provide that info. Perhaps there's a way for us to obtain that knowledge anyways? -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 06:32, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

All I can think of is that if we can't provide original information but we still want to write a tutorial on something, we can get some information from elsewhere, like we do with most mainspace articles, and do what we usually do. And by that I mean don't copy an entire article as it would be a copyvio and pointless; just use the references to back up that it is research. If we ever decide to go down that route for tutorials then maybe a template on a page with external citations saying, "This tutorial may include research from external resources" or something like that just to show that it's not 100% our original information and to acknowledge that it's someone else's work. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 11:19, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

I believe we can improve the tutorials. I think some users might consider tutorials similar with fanons; they can write freely as they want. So, it's not really advisable to promote or depend on random users who might create random tutorials. There are also some contents that don't belong to mainspace, and better stay in tutorial namespace, such as this, this, or this. Tutorial is also a good place to share your advice and opinion, or even facts you get by looking in the game with SimPE that don't fit in the mainspace. Things like "to earn quick money, you must do this and that" fits perfectly in tutorial (with some quality consideration). Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 09:54, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Adding Goth family members

Upon looking at new Sims showing up with the surname, I think that maybe we should not include some as members unless we have enough information on their background; such as Wulf Goth, his wife Trish Goth, Mathilde Goth, and any others. I think we should just add that these Sims just share the name instead but not include them to the preexisting families, any opinions? Starmoonie(Talk Here) 02:46, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

I added them, but actually, since some users added the Category:Goths category to them, it really resented me. Thus, it's easier to remove the categories by just removing the templates from the Sim page, instead of adding that category to each page. I know I never liked the Goth plague, and I'm really okay about removing them. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 09:31, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Well then we should remove them because that is kind of ridiculous to see that they have those categories and templates. I'll remove them now because we can't have editors thinking we know these are actual family members when we have little to no evidence. Starmoonie(Talk Here) 18:39, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Allowing bureaucrats to hand out bot flags

So I was in the process earlier thinking that we could do with another bot or two, in addition to WoganBot, purely due to timezone differences and that bots can be used for different things. During this process, I noticed that bureaucrats on some larger wikis are able to hand out the flags without contacting Wikia.

I decided to contact Wikia enquiring as into whether or not we could have this here and as we have a large community with "mature administration" (quoted directly from Wikia's response to my email), they are happy to allow this on the condition that the community here supports this.

I see no reason as into why our bureaucrats shouldn't be allowed to have the ability to hand out bot flags as they're the most trusted users on this wiki and it would save a lot of time. Plus we can't really have too many bots as long as they're run by trustworthy users. This may seem like a somewhat minor thing but I feel it's a beneficial thing to have.

Given that the community is okay with this, I'll reply to Wikia with the outcome. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 21:36, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

This sounds awesome to me. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 21:45, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yup, would save time in getting bots approved. Fine with me. ―ฬђ ^talk 23:18, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Seeing as noone has voiced any opposition whatsoever, I've gone ahead and asked Wikia to implement this ability. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 10:05, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I've been informed by Wikia that the bureaucrats now have the ability to +/- bot flags. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 09:08, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Administrative projects

So I've noticed that Administrative projects have pretty much just died completely even though new administrators are still being added and are still "required" to choose two projects. I initially supported the addition of this to try and encourage activity among administrators. Given that the feature is just sitting there, I've got some suggestions to try and deal with it:

1. We could introduce a wider array of positions to give administrators more choice of what to choose when applying for an RfA to try and encourage further interest.
2. We make it so that choosing an administrative project is completely voluntary so that a user doesn't feel pressured into choosing a position when applying for an RfA.
3. We scrap administrative projects completely.

Personally I'd prefer if we go for the last option. In my opinion as long as an administrator is active and the wiki is in good shape then that's all that really matters, not to mention that different users have different editing styles and are better suited to doing different things on the wiki, which an AP may not cover and plus it may seem like forcing a user to commit to an AP is putting quite a bit of scrutiny on not only the user but administrators in general. I am however open to either of the other suggestions and if anyone has any different ideas, feel free to jot them down. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 10:28, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

I've noticed that too. I vote option 3. Bakerychaz (talk page · blog) 12:51, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Certainly admins haven't been contributing, but bureaucrats have been neglecting to enforce the projects like they were originally supposed to, so it's no wonder that the projects aren't working. But since participation isn't being enforced, I honestly see no harm in keeping it. If joining the projects happens to encourage admins to work on the project goals, then that's all the better for the wiki.

Also, as an aside to Georgie, I think it would be best, when you start a vote, if you perhaps wait to give your opinion until others have been given a chance to weigh in. There's two reasons for that - one, if you're the one starting the vote, it appears that you're the one "controlling" it (even though any admin/'crat can start, stop, or change voting), so you giving your opinion right away might indicate that you are pushing - not just encouraging - a particular outcome. Two; The purpose of discussions is to determine a good course of action. There's no point in having them if every one has their mind made up right away. That's the same reason votes are supposed to wait until a good discussion period has passed - every matter can be brought out onto the table and can be weighed by each participant before they make up their minds. Just some food for thought. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 14:21, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

It's not necessarily anybody's fault in particular that the projects have gone inactive so I wouldn't go shifting the blame on anyone, whether it be administrators, bureaucrats or anyone for that matter, not to mention that I don't recall seeing anyone take any interest in order to actually attempt to revive it or at least keep it active, so in that sense one person is as much to blame as the next person. This also lead me to think that users find the system to be uninteresting, hence why I brought it up besides the point that some of the projects literally require next to no work whatsoever (Visual improvement comes to mind here) and that the projects themselves which we currently have are somewhat limited in scope.

tl;dr? There are various reasons why APs may have gone inactive, it's not necessarily anybody's fault and this isn't the place to be blaming certain users for the inactivity of the APs, especially if nobody whatsoever decided to keep it from going inactive. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 18:56, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I'll go with number 2, but I kinda suppose that admins can work more flexible, so they can work on whichever project that they think they can handle, not in particular one. If it's scrapped entirely, new admins might feel "lost" because they just don't know where to start or what for any APs, but I don't really think this is the point to talk about. Nikel _{Talk – Vote – Guess!} 06:30, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to bump this to try and get an answer. I realise that I opted to delete the feature above but I wouldn't be opposed to making it an optional requirement just to allow for more flexibility and if there is a certain area that an admin has experience with, they can jump in if they wish. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 11:13, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Based on what was said by others, I think it should be an optional requirement. No one should be to blame for the projects' inactivity, I think it is simply explained by lack of interest and lack of permanent tasks to be performed in each project. --RoseGui (talk here) 20:16, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Leaving RfB open on a permanent basis

Something which both LiR and WH said on the RfB page got me thinking about something. If we can't have too many admins then how can we have too many crats? When we agreed to leave RfA open permanently, the consensus stated that RfB shouldn't be left open. However, I think we should rethink this.

Back when we agreed to leave RfA open, I was initially wary of leaving it that way as I predicted an uncontrollable influx of users applying and being too over-ambitious. 6 months later, it appears that leaving it open all the time was a good move and everything has been steady and I'll admit it's actually made things easier. Various other wikis are always accepting RfB nominations/applications/requests/whatever you want to call them, in addition to RfAs, and if a common belief is that we can't have too many crats, then why not leave the page open? If things go as smoothly as leaving RfA open did then I can't see any negatives surrounding this.

What do you all think? Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 11:22, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think the bureaucrat page should be left open. Bakerychaz (talk page · blog) 11:27, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think the current 'one application at a time' rule, as well as the rule that only admins may apply for/become bureaucrats would prevent any sort of flood of requests, even if it were apparent that people were scrambling to become 'crats, which it appears is not the case. So I support keeping the page open indefinitely. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 18:26, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Seeing as noone has opposed this, I'm just going to make the bold move of making it so that RfB is open indefinitely. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 06:53, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Fanon, cleanup and deletion

I was initially planning to put this over on the Fanon Portal talk page but then I kind of felt that noone will even notice if I put anything there so I've decided to put it here.

Anyway, whilst patrolling the Fanon Cleanup category, it occurred to me that articles are being tagged for a mixture of different things. The {{Fanon-cleanup}} template itself states,

"If the creator does not improve or expand this article in a reasonable amount of time, it may be subject to deletion."

With those words, it seems like the template is basically a nicer way of saying "improve the article or it will be deleted" yet I've noticed that the template is being used to tag fanon articles which are actually of good quality but may have a slight formatting error with say a userbox or something, which is a bit of a problem because it's basically giving the impression that something has to be perfect or it'll be deleted.

The reason I am bringing this up is because I think we should try to figure out a way to make it seem like there is less scrutiny on the standard of fanon articles and to try and make the tagging system more efficient. In my opinion, the message given in the current iteration of {{Fanon-cleanup}} is fine for an article which is at risk of being deleted but it doesn't seem to accommodate any other situation where a fanon may need cleaning up but doesn't justify deleting. I do have a few ideas regarding this:

1. We could modify {{Fanon-cleanup}} so that it can accommodate different situations in which it could be used for. For example, if it's for an article that may need cleanup to avoid deletion, the code could say {{Fanon-cleanup|sub=delete}} or for a general formatting fix it could say {{Fanon-cleanup|sub=fix}}. I've noticed this template from Uncyclopedia is set up like this (yay for me sourcing Uncyc again).
2. We could keep {{Fanon-cleanup}} as it is and only use it for deletion whilst creating a new template aimed at formatting errors and whatnot. I haven't got any ideas for names and content yet but feel free to suggest something.
3. We could modify {{Fanon-delete}} to accommodate what {{Fanon-cleanup}} already does while using the latter for general cleanup.

If anyone has their own ideas, feel free to jot them down. Thoughts? Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 22:54, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

I remember that, way back when the Fanon namespace was being started up, we attempted to set up a 'grading scale' where the 'grade' a contribution earned would determine a course of action. That didn't really ever happen, so now it largely is either 'your fanon is good' or 'your fanon is bad' - there's no real in-between. So I think working with the {{Fanon-cleanup}} template would work best, with variable language indicating the 'grade' of the article, in general terms. However, it would be important to make sure that the default text of Fanon-cleanup was general enough and, in my eyes, didn't indicate that an article would be deleted if not cleaned up. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 23:05, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with LiR's idea. Perhaps we could reformulate the default template's language to a more moderate tone and then use LiR's idea of creating the grades. I also agree with option three. --RoseGui (talk here) 11:12, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, to me too, Fanon-cleanup is better generalized, without the hassle of threat about deletion. Fanon-cleanup can be better used to tag fanons if their layout is bad. I'm thinking like in 3), we can change Fanon-delete instead of using it for tagging fanons we definitely are going to delete anyway. Long story short, I can't say much other than I think option 3 is ideal. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 07:31, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking we add some parameters to fanon-cleanup so tha a reason can be specified myself. ―ฬђ ^talk '—ฬђ ^tคlк' 09:13, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

I'm working on a userspace redraft of {{Fanon-cleanup}} using some additional parameters (so far I've got delete, format and multiple) though it is incomplete. The template currently works as:

{{User:GEORGIEGIBBONS/Template:Fanon-cleanup_(redraft)|parameter}}

I am planning to make some further changes but if anyone has anything to add, change etc. then feel free to do so. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 18:53, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Based on what everyone has said, I've updated {{Fanon-cleanup}} with some new parameters. Be sure to check the documentation for these. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 00:16, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Attracting, keeping and engaging new users

I know this was brought up fairly recently but given that discussion either dried up or nothing came out of it, I've decided to bring it up again. I've sent messages via my bot to some of the highly active users to try and encourage ideas to be put forward besides letting them know that this discussion exists.

Currently the number of users who have edited in the past 30 days lies at 322 according to Special:Statistics. A few months ago, I noticed this was in around about the 600-range, probably down to the release of The Sims 3: Showtime. A major consideration here is that a lot of users may register, make one or two only to immediately disappear and I'm not sure why. Last time I checked, we had thousands of people visit TSW on a daily basis...or at least I knew that before Wikia decided to hide the Quantcast listing for TSW.

As the Community Director, I can't help but feel we as a community should come together to try and find ways to make the wiki seem more attractive to new users and to find ways to reach out and get them engaging within the community to try and make them feel like they want to stay.

I often find that it always seems to be the same users who really give any input, suggestions or anything like that around here and while I'm not implying anything regarding those who don't do it as much, I would like to see more users getting involved in the community, even if it's just deciding whether or not we should support/change/implement/do something on the wiki.

We indeed have various different ways of engaging the community, some are more successful than others and there is a variety of different features here already but not all of them seem to be embraced as far as their potential goes.

In relation to above, I often invite users to comment monthly events blogs to contribute new ideas and though there have been a few instances where it's happened, it's really nothing more than a few and I myself find it difficult at times to think of something original to put down because I don't exactly know what the community wants meaning I've had to recycle the same events over months and it gets a bit boring. From a personal view, I often wander onto TSW looking for something fun to do and in the mindset that there is potential for something appealing to come about but I can't quite put a finger on what it is.

I realise this seems like a big thing and I strongly encourage that if you have any ideas related to this topic that you put them forward. We're honestly open to anything new from any user - we shouldn't be afraid to try new and different things. I feel that outreach is important when it comes to growth and if we can get something from this then it will not only be good for our September spotlight (see above if that was a surprise to you) but in the long term also.

I've realised I've babbled on enough so I'll let the community have a say. I'll keep watch of this to see if anything interesting comes up but please, don't be shy to put something forward - noone will bite you for it. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 21:17, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

I also have noticed, in my short time here, spikes and decreases in activity. I myself dropped off the face of thw wikia for a month or so. For one thing, school and sports are starting here in the United States and that could also lead the a decrease we have no say in. But I big thing that might lead to this decrease is the elemination of player stories. As much as I dislike player stories they are a big cause of this drop in active users. I'm not saying we should bring them back but we should add something new to take their place. Something the users can call they're own but not cause trouble for the admins. The first thing that comes to my mind is Starmoonie's idea for Fanon Battles. While there are a few kinks in the idea eventually when the community started to get the hang of things I believe it would turn into a huge success. Freedom50000 (talk) 21:04, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

Before I say anything regarding solutions, I'd like to say that you shouldn't blame yourself for these issues - you've been an excellent CD and these problems aren't your fault.

Coming now to fixing the problems... that's difficult. I wish there was a magical silver bullet that would remedy it, but I don't think there is. Historically I can tell you that this time of year - heading into fall - is usually our busiest time, contributions-wise. It generally peaks around October but remains steadily busy through the holidays and into the new year. This pattern might be due to new releases (in '10 it was Late Night, in '11 it was Pets) or spotlights, but that's just been the general pattern. I think as we near Supernatural and Seasons releases, our traffic will tick up significantly, but if we're talking long-term solutions... again, it's difficult.

In a dream world, I'd love it if our spotlights and our 'promotional events' were a bit more elaborate. For instance, I think it would be awesome if we had a sort of contest to coincide with the spotlight, and the prize would be, say, a paid-for copy of Supernatural. Again, I stipulate, in a dream world this would be wonderful to try, but I know it might be a stretch to get that going here. Failing actual tangible prizes, I can't help but remember the Platinum Badge promotion for Late Night - although there were a lot of logistical issues involving that particular incident.

So, putting aside all those 'ideas', I think that contests and community participatory "games" would be a good idea to pursue, with non-existent or 'fluff' prizes (like bragging rights, a specialized userbox, etc). If for example we did a Supernatural photo caption contest, we could have users put forward their captions then have an administrator pick the winner (rather than a popular vote, which would take too long IMO).

Finally, I think utilizing our Facebook page would be a good way to bring people on the wiki. We have presently (as of Aug. 6) 260 likes on the page, meaning that there are 260 people who will get news from TSW whenever we update the page. More than likely those people visited TSW, liked what they saw and chose to follow us on Facebook, but it doesn't mean they're contributors to TSW. IF we could put together a good program to utilize the FB page while encouraging those people who like TSW on facebook to participate on the wiki itself, that might be a potential source of new editors whom are already familiar with TSW.

I'd love to see some other ideas as well, but these are just a few things I've kicked around in my head. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 21:58, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

I think creating a rumor blog or forum might be attracting some users to leave a comment, like how much they're so keen on The Sims 4. After all, I think moderating a blog is arguably easier. We could've done it for Weather Days before EA announced it and spoiled it at the same time. But after Seasons, I have no single idea what kind of upcoming EP they're planning. All the themes we already predicted... will be/have been/will have been/blah "be" released.

As for the badge, I think people made some points on some discussions or the one way long ago. I don't think we want to bump this in again. Instead, we could make some personalized badges to give it to people like LiR said. I think Awards feature is not a really bad idea, although I'm sure we could do better than that, like adding more badges or redesigning.

I'm wondering if users actually know some features that are already present in this wiki, like forums, user-created contests, and such. The presence is lacking (or there's barely presence). I don't know how people will notice such features. The links are mostly provided in the navigation, but I guess they just didn't navigate everything up there. We might be able to invite people via their talkpage if there's an even or something, but maybe not by using bots. Maybe we could make some occasional blog to "explore" our wiki? Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 02:14, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think new users are pretty lost in here. So, I agree with Nikel. Occasional blog or a message on users' talkpage would be very helpful on notifying about new blogs, contests, battles, games etc., but I also think improvement on main page is needed (As Nikel mentioned the lack of presence).

There are many features here on wiki, perhaps some new would be great, but giving awards/badges would actually make users to stay because it's not just pointless contest (or some kind of game), it's interesting and people like when they are rewarded for something. They also want to stay to compete for another reward and they will stay here longer. Simming is my Life! _Talk 12:44, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

The main page is very good already (unless anyone wants to add up more things there), so I'm not quite sure where to put up more links. :/ Introduction blogs might be good. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 12:49, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

It's true, but I think something more should be added. There are lots of things on the main page but I'd like something like this: Current Forum, Current Contest or Current Game. Otherwise noone will notice any contest or forum. Simming is my Life! _Talk 13:18, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

It's nice to see you comment, Katarina. :) I agree with the idea of occasional blog and messaging. I also believe that we shouldn't panick over this, I'm not saying we shouldn't look for solutions, though. It's a phase. To be honest, the wiki is a lot different from what I found initially. It gradually changes, everything changes. As for the wiki's content itself, I think spoiling too much the games is not helping as well - in my personal case, I often find new games really interesting and its pages have a lot of information about them, but then, when they are released, I often find the features to be disappointing myself. That could explain why we have so much traffic on pages about games which haven't yet been released and the decrease in the traffic after those games are released. People seem not to want to write about it, maybe because they lose interest as well? Unfortunately, I don't know if we can control this, because, after all, it's our job to keep readers informed. Spoiling can lead users not to find things by themselves and, subsequently, not write about it. Thank you for reading. --RoseGui (talk here) 13:46, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

I do realise that there may be some factors that are out of our control and I will admit we do have a larger userbase now compared to 2 years ago as an example. Granted I have noticed that unusually for a time when school holidays are common, in this case summer, activity doesn't seem to have changed much. The reason I decided to revisit this is because I'm interested in trying to grow the community by finding ways to engage people and reach out to make them feel welcome and think that there is more to this place than editing all the time. I am optimistic that we'll keep growing steadily and if we can make this place seem more engaging then it can be a highly positive thing. The vast majority, and I mean vast, of our current userbase are mature, competent and it would be nice to have more users like that.

Responding to what I've seen so far, I think more contests/games would be pretty good as long as it doesn't become the wiki's sole focus, which I honestly can't see happening. Our off-topic forum goes largely unused aside from the few games that are already there and the occasional off-topic forum thread so I think that'll be a good place to put some more. I did try to resurrect The Sims Wiki:User Created Contests almost a year ago to universal failure so maybe we could give that some promotion and see if anyone's interested. I think the prizes could be something like userboxes or something that can go on a userpage. The Sims Wiki Awards 2011 was something kind of made up in a few minutes on IRC which was wildly successful so I'm interested in doing that again.

I think social interaction would be good too. I noticed we have ~450 followers on our Twitter so we could potentially roll that out to Twitter too. I'm also interested in possibly branching out to other social mediums. Having recently been playing around with Steam, I was thinking we could maybe create a group for TSW. Although the series doesn't really have any multiplayer interaction, I was thinking, if anyone actually uses Steam for gaming, that members can join the group, organise sessions on other games or something like that, it seemed to have worked for My Little Pony Wiki. Granted it's only really a minor idea which may or may not work for us but it's another social medium which allows interaction.

Finally, I think maybe changing our default welcome message around a bit to not only offer help and other wiki-centred stuff but to try and make that seem more engaging. I recognise that there is already a bit on the end for that but maybe we can tweak it a bit to offer a wider variety or something. Keep your suggestions coming in and we'll take a look at them. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 19:17, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

I haven't really been here for long. But, I've already become fairly involved with the community of TSW, and as said before, it isn't your fault, GG.

There are, in my belief, three main reasons for the decline in activity around the wiki.

1. The Deletion of Player Stories: Player Stories has been a very hot and touchy topic recently. The first time I visited the wiki was to get information on some Sims from the town who invaded my house. I got that information, but just looking up the information was boring: I wanted to add some info of my own. I think the deletion of player stories has aggravated many users. I should be talking, as I was once a constant contributor. The Player Stories subdivision of user pages is a good substitute, but if you really think about it it doesn't really come up to the same standards as player stories did. It isn't going to be as if every user goes and randomly checks on somebody's page to see their player stories: the activity surrounding player stories will just diminish.
2. EPs and the Olympics: There haven't been any releases of new EPs recently. I'm certain that as soon as Supernatural and Seasons are released, the population of the wiki will skyrocket, as it will do when EA releases TS4. I would approve of LiRs fantasy if it weren't just that. Also, the Olympics are on. I have been increasingly less active to cheer on the American athletes from home. As soon as the Olympics are over, it's probable that some users will return.
3. Wikia Contributors: One thing I disapprove of on the wiki is that Wikia Contributors are banned from things like Fanon creation and Battles voting. Sometimes the user may not want to sign up, and therefore will never get that chance to share their own info, especially now that we have bid Player Stories farewell. In every other way, Wikia Contributors are just like us Users. If we open up the restrictions on those users, we will see a significant increase in activity.

Le Solutions: Personally, I think if everyone was as friendly to Un-logged in users as they were to me, we would see a decrease in inactive users. I think if we alert users to things like Battles, Fanon Battles, Nominations and Voting, or just gave them a friendly hello every once in a while, more and more users will consider the wiki as a second home. PGR7 ^{(habla - escuchar)} 02:12, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with most of what PGR7 said, and I do think welcoming new users and just leaving them a little message on their talk page once in a while is the best solution. When I started on TSW, Starmoonie and RoseGui welcomed me and complimented me, which motivated me to become a rollback, and later an admin. Also, encouraging unregistered users to create an account will be good and they might become a good part of TSW's community. BakeryChaz ~ (let's have a chat!) 02:32, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

For the record, battles voting is open to both registered and unregistered contributors. -- LiR ^{speak ~ read} 03:46, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

(resetting ident) As well as what LiR said, fanon creation is open to anonymous users to an extent but are required to create an account and claim ownership of their fanon for the sake of identification as IP addresses can change. The Olympics could be somewhat of a factor in declining activity and I'm interested to see how things are after that. Granted, I am interested in the idea of trying to get anonymous users engaged enough to want to create an account and stick around, as well as what Bakerychaz said about motivation. I've seen some good suggestions here so far and I'm very interested in seeing some more if possible. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 18:26, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, here's one thing I've noticed- new users, such as myself about six months ago, didn't have the confidence to create mainspace edits. Most anonymous users went straight for the player stories, which may explain why they were such a huge mess. Users who wanted to register, such as myself, went to the fanon portal to let their creativity flow. I've noticed the Featured... competitions have been inactive for large periods of time. If they were revived, maybe it would make the fanon writers stay whilst they get the hang of the the source code and such. And then maybe they could create a monthly list of pages that really need work on, such as stubs from the lesser played games (I believe only 8 users, myself included, play this game.) AsherEire talk 21:16, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to this blog being bumped, I'm thinking having more blogs like this could be good for engaging the community. Also I've noticed for a little while now that Featured Content in general seems to be lacking and I know in the past I've tried to go for keeping things the same hoping activity will pick up but now I'm thinking a general revamp may be a good idea. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 22:09, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with all users. But I have one idea. To make up to 10 featured editors or authors, who made positive contributions, every month or week. That will be good motivation like awards. I do not know whether it would be a good motivation, but I think that other users will be happy. Christy (talk to me) 10:55, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

How about enhancing the Awards as a gratitude for friendly and hard-working users? I like the idea of awards that we present to some users ourselves, but not the crappy award feature provided by wikia that makes people "edit for award." Our award feature is good, but a little simple. Maybe we could spruce it up a bit? I have a few ideas of it though. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 12:08, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I like that idea. I've noticed some wikis have users give out awards for doing specific tasks (like mass cleanup, anti-vandalism etc.) which we don't really have a system for. I think making a more complex awards system would be a great way to show recognition in addition to what we already have. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 12:18, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about Christy's idea. If we had 10 featured editors, then being FE wouldn't be as prestigious.

What about 10 featured editors and "Editor of the Month" aswell? Then we could have 10 Featured Editors and the best editor. BakeryChaz ~ (let's have a chat!) 12:29, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

The issue is there are hardly enough nominations to even accommodate having 10 Featured Editors in one month. I see where the thought is with this although it really depends on our userbase meaning it's a hit or miss affair.

Also (not sure if I've already mentioned this) but I think it could be worth trying to make both our IRC channel and Special:Chat more appealing for users to make the most of. Activity in Chat is certainly picking up and I'd like to see it increase some more. Same goes for IRC - it's mostly administrators, a few active users and mostly people from other wikis. Like we have for the IRC channel, I think creating a dedicated page for Chat could be useful too to accommodate information and all that. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 16:28, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Moving on

Seeing as discussion has dried up, here is a list of what has been suggested above with the aim of attracting new users and improving the way the community engages with each other:

• More contests and games, such as in the off-topic forum
• Utilisation and branching out with social media
• Improving the Awards system to acknowledge a wide variety of things in addition to having an annual awards system
• Further promotion of the lesser used community features (such as contests, forums etc.)
• Improving the user welcoming system either by reshaping the automated welcome message, having administrators welcome the users manually or something like that
• More series-related engagement blogs, similar to this one
• Making the wiki seem appealing to anonymous editors via letting them get involved with games and such
• Reviving/revamping Featured Content, namely fanon for engagement purposes (although everything seems to be lacking but if someone wants to propose something about this then feel free)
• Talk page notifications of things one can do here (like a "subscription" thing or something like that)
• Trying to get users involved with IRC and Chat
• Reviving New User Adopting, which I was meant to do a while back based on an old proposal... Done that one.

As you can see, we've got quite a fair few things we can implement and I'm very committed to making as many of these suggestions come to fruition as possible. If anyone has anything new to propose then feel free to add it to the main section (above this sub-section) and if it seems practical then I can add it to the above list. Finally before we choose to implement anything, if anyone has any comments/suggestions about the list regarding how to implement something, how to improve something etc. then don't hesitate to speak out. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 16:21, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

That's really a lot of options, though I'm not sure if we can keep all of them intact. In a quite different topic, perhaps we could add more admins... just a suggestion though. Nikel _{Talk – Vote!} 16:00, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

As things currently stand, all of the request pages (namely RfR, RfA and RfB) are open indefinitely to anyone who wishes to come forward provided they're eligible. I guess an easier way to handle this would be to decide which suggestions will probably be the most effective and whether or not it'll be practical to implement them. There is a bit of a variety there so we have a lot to choose from. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 17:33, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think some people just find there's a lot going on all at once. And, of course, that's not a bad thing. It is always good to have things that many different users can participate in, and can enjoy with others. I think it's one of the best things about this wiki, actually. However, I think some new users look at the main page and just think, "Wow, there is so much happening!", and try to pick as many things as possible to get into. And then tomorrow arrives, bringing homework and a maths test and anything else, meaning the user will not get to go on the Wiki that night. And then a few more days pass, and the user finally gets to go on the Wiki, and they realise the contest is over, the discussion has ended, the problem has been fixed, and the voting is closed.

I guess I'm just trying to say that maybe we should try toning things down just a little bit. It might not work, but it could be worth a try.

Also, I think some of the suggestions above are absolutely fanastic. I think the ones that give a more community, 'homey' feeling, as though no one is excluded and we are all friends. _{(I know I still need to get onto that IRC...)} ~ Waikikamukow (talk) 08:21, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing that could be addressed by trying to show that there is plenty to do without making it seem too overwhelming. Maybe promoting a feature in its entirety could be more effective than promoting say a "sub-feature" of something (by that I mean say promote the off-topic forum as a whole rather than just individually promote a few threads). If anyone has an idea about this, jot it down.

Also, I've dug out [The_Sims_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive_18#New_user_adoption the NUA discussion] from a while back which gained a positive response so I may as well get to trying to revive it a bit. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 12:08, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Late bump - Adopt-a-user is back up for anyone who wants to have a look. IRC and Chat seem to be progressing nicely, what with The Sims Wiki:Chat being created. Again, if anyone has anything to say about any of the above or if you want to have a go at one of these, feel free to do so. Lost Labyrinth • (c) • (b) 19:00, September 4, 2012 (UTC)